WCS item pickup

[Crazyyoshi]

I'm not sure if its possible, but there should be loot since its Warcraft. I think if someone say has the necklace and you kill them. Running over the remains while having a open slot for a item will give it to you. The only ones i can think of that should not be picked up are Health and Ankhs. Everything else is like a piece of armor. I want to know what you guys think. I would change WCS up a bit as well.

[Erdenay]

Bad idea, IMHO. Would be way too easy to become OP and collect enough items. No good reason for this.

[ZERO]

Actually this would help for balance in a way b/c when a losing team kills someone on the winning team that has a bunch of items it allows transfer to that player. I think it should only work as a chance and or only after a player has had items for x rounds and then if they die they drop items, this makes it so that items do not drop from noobs but from pros sort of like beating a boss.

What do others think about this b/c I actually like this more than the pricing solution as it is very easy to implement and it still requires skill for players to get an advantage. Also there is a number of ways to balance this out and I like how it feels rewarding to the players who happen to kill that pro with all the items and to the pro they are moved into more like a boss in a typical rpg.

[Erdenay]

Actually this would help for balance in a way b/c when a losing team kills someone on the winning team that has a bunch of items it allows transfer to that player. I think it should only work as a chance and or only after a player has had items for x rounds and then if they die they drop items, this makes it so that items do not drop from noobs but from pros sort of like beating a boss.

What do others think about this b/c I actually like this more than the pricing solution as it is very easy to implement and it still requires skill for players to get an advantage. Also there is a number of ways to balance this out and I like how it feels rewarding to the players who happen to kill that pro with all the items and to the pro they are moved into more like a boss in a typical rpg.

This would make it a bit more interesting. What exact numeric values were you thinking, Zero?

The few things to contemplate about:
I) Do items stack?
II) What if a player that has not died for a while and has 3 items kills another one like him?

[ZERO]

Would likely only reward players that have avaliable slots open. remember the point of adding something like this would be a rewards system that also balances the game. By rewarding non itemed players who kill players who have items and are good. It creates a new game machanic and helps to resolve existing balance issues.

[Erdenay]

Well, IMO, it's worth a shot and consideration. Implement it and see if it works out. Theoretically, it should balance and work out.

[StarsMine]

Well first off, this is warcraft, not WoW. I dont recal loot in warcraft

However I do somewhat like the idea, things like ankh, scrolls, would not transfer, but socks, health, helms could.
It would not hurt the good players, just reward them, But it gives newbies or lesser skilled people a jump in power after they kill someone who has 3 items.
Would make more of a reward killing that 200hp human when there is a chance you get 50 hp for killing him. that could be used to have a "fairer" chance against him next round.

[thecat]

It looks like we are going to mod a mod, its modception :lmao:.
But yah this would help out with the balance.
Now for the serious part, we first need to think about how many slots you should have.
Next we need to add a dropping mechanic.
Last but not least, a selling mechanic.
We should also add more items to make the game more fun.
:wtg:

[Chikun]

I dont recal loot in warcraft

You don't remember killing the dragon to get the orb of fire in War3?

Human campaign, early missions. It was when they introduced the dwarven sniper in the build menu. I seem to remember a lot of stupid shit that serves no purpose.

[XX0wnsXY]

I think this idea could work. Like youre saying.. Only players with empty slots should be eligile. Lets try it

[SCRIBBLE]

This could work well especially in lieu of coding the other races. Leading players would think twice about haphazardly buying items that may fall into other team's hands and it would give the losing team an extra push. It would also allow inexperienced players the opportunity to become familiar with items they may otherwise not know to buy.

Then again, it has the potential to make the losing team's attempts all the more futile in supplying the winning team's lower tier players and make the winning team stronger at the expense of the losing team.

[Bane of Soldiers]

Questions: how would the items, after death, be distributed? Must they be retrieved from the corpse, like guns? Would a well equipped teammate be allowed to kill a similarly equipped enemy and have their teammates scavenge and collect? Would you restrict collection to the killer? And would we be able to collect necklaces from voids and helms from athenas, much like we can scavenge dualies/shotguns from magicians and ak-47s/scouts from jacks?


Certainly could give a fun little spin to being an underdog

[Masskid]

How is the item decided?

if you have ring + claw and they have helm orb and mask what do you pick up?

[maynard]

Bad idea, IMHO. Would be way too easy to become OP and collect enough items. No good reason for this.

way 2 abandon your opinion cause zero disagreed lol...



Well first off, this is warcraft, not WoW. I dont recal loot in warcraft

lol? you serious? fail...





I have no issues with this idea, provided it's properly set up... if the same items are basically just getting moved around from player 2 player via a person dying... the concept of money and it's value in the server will be diluted. something needs 2 be set up where items are only transferable X amount of times after X amount of rounds and have a % chance on if it will even work trying 2 pick up the items.

[XX0wnsXY]

way 2 abandon your opinion.

Lol keepin it real with maynard!

[Blackmage]

Actually this would help for balance in a way b/c when a losing team kills someone on the winning team that has a bunch of items it allows transfer to that player. I think it should only work as a chance and or only after a player has had items for x rounds and then if they die they drop items, this makes it so that items do not drop from noobs but from pros sort of like beating a boss.

What do others think about this b/c I actually like this more than the pricing solution as it is very easy to implement and it still requires skill for players to get an advantage. Also there is a number of ways to balance this out and I like how it feels rewarding to the players who happen to kill that pro with all the items and to the pro they are moved into more like a boss in a typical rpg.

Well, first, this seems to require more luck than skill. It requires getting the last hit, on a player with useful items, at a time when they can drop the items. As it seems the assumption is it also gives them right away it also requires that you can survive to put these items to use, given firefights, revives, and other shenanigans. Also, if you include luck based drops, well, there you go.

I also don't feel it is as efficient at balancing the game as the cost reduction, because it requires a lot of things. That the winning team is using items, or useful items. Items such as claws are great on human and jack, meh on many races. That people who can use the items get the kills, be it because of kill stealing, the enemy getting away, awp on a stick, or just racial restrictions. Yes, this point could be largely solved by teamwork, but let's face it, if we had teamwork, we wouldn't NEED more balance. On the other hand, cost reduction just requires your team getting stomped, and helps the entire team, which is something else this fails to do.

I'm wondering what you were thinking about with X. Because, in three rounds of winning, I can afford an ankh and two random other items. Many races only need one or two items, or spawn with guns, so can afford to die every 2 rounds. If X is too large, it can encourage shock troops to dump items after they can replace them. If it's 1 round, the losing team will be supplying the winning team with items. This also can encourage more farming by an main objective sided, dominating team, "don't kill him, next round he drops his items".

However, I do like the idea, I just don't like it as THE "balancing" mechanism. Maybe add in a bounty system for players with kill streaks too, so you get something that will last if you kill the "pro" players. Or give the player the money equivalent, or a percentage, of the items the dead person was holding, or split it between the team/alive part of the team. This idea would solve a number of problems. Janky or class based builds (sock + claws on a spiderman), helping the full item'd players who kill the dominating players, not losing items just as you get them.

However, from the programming standpoint, go for whatever will work :P

(joke)If items are really the problem, just restrict the number of items each player on the winning team can hold or let the losers keep items on death (/joke)


I have no issues with this idea, provided it's properly set up... if the same items are basically just getting moved around from player 2 player via a person dying... the concept of money and it's value in the server will be diluted. something needs 2 be set up where items are only transferable X amount of times after X amount of rounds and have a % chance on if it will even work trying 2 pick up the items.

Based upon what Zero said, either this shouldn't happen except in a very close game, because you'll need to survive a bit with the item for it to transfer, which normally doesn't happen for the losing team or, like you said, it'll be percentage based. Players don't normally survive round in a row (with a few exceptions such as mr. I don't actually have to do the objective) unless they are on the winning team, so as long as the number of rounds are long enough, unless there is a very odd perfect sequence, item trading won't happen very often.

[Erdenay]

way 2 abandon your opinion cause zero disagreed lol...

It was done due to a few things:
I) I never thought anything like that would be implemented.
II) Didn't quite work out some of the mechanics that Zero suggested - which would make it work okay.
III) Not like my opinion means anything anyways ;)

(In other words - it wasn't because Zero disagreed - it was because I'm blind, dumb and couldn't properly see how this could make the server better. If someone would have suggested the same thing, I'm fairly confident I'd have changed my opinion to that as well)

[CYBER]

1- Zero, how would you go about restricted items on a race? Would you allow for example a vaga of picking up a helm or claw from a random leading enemy?
Or would it just look for items that are compatible?

2- Does loot drop from people who have been ALIVE for many rounds? or have been on the WINNING TEAM for many rounds? big difference. Or perhaps, imo, it should drop only from the top 3 players on the other team? Making everyone want to target the big guns rather than worrying about the backseat riders on the other team?
What if loot drops if a player has killed X people in X rounds minimum? They get flagged by the loot system, when Then when they die, they drop loot for the killer.

3- Bane brought up an interesting point, who gets the loot? the killer? or anyone near the body's radius? Or whoever did most damage to that player? or both? Because kill stealing is not something we want to promote in wcs like in gg...

Suggestion:
I would suggest that if the looting system triggered on a pro's death, a tiny 25ft white ward or smthn would appear on the victim's dead body and stay active for 5 secs only. First to get in it gets a random compatible item from him. And if another teammate walked in it before it disappeared, they get 1 random item of the REMAINING lower tier items that the player held on him when they died? This way, it would favor the player who was near the enemy rather than someone 100 ft away, seeing as they had more of a risk factor, without completely denying the partner with another loot.

Also, I would suggest that the loot system only procs at the death of the top 3 out of 20 of the WINNING team's players. Making them a primary target.
I see it many times where the loosing team focuses on a few lame players on the winning team, and call it a day... but this way, it might favor ppl working together to take out the big badies first to get stronger.

[Blackmage]

1- Zero, how would you go about restricted items on a race? Would you allow for example a vaga of picking up a helm or claw from a random leading enemy?
Or would it just look for items that are compatible?

I'd assume it'd be whatever happens when you switch to a race while holding a restricted item (can't remember what it is, but I remember it happens).


top 3 out of 20 of the WINNING team's players.

heh

[Spasm]

My opinion is it's a bad idea because then everyone would be rolling items almost constantly. Now the money sink of items is cut big time and when the winning team does happen to lose a few people, the next round they will get a kill or two and max items. The sword works both ways. This idea will devalue items since everyone will have them almost all the time. I personally don't think helm and lace being more common then they already are is even close to a good idea. I like the choice of either a lace or a rifle at the round beginning, it adds skill to the game.

ZERO many things have been discussed to fix this issue of team stacking and something like this would not resolve the issue, it may even make it worse and imo would lower the skill ceiling of the wcs server.

The /scramble idea someone posted would work great.
Forced auto assign would work great.
Remove level cap would help.
The idea in admin section would work great.

The heart of the team balance issue is everyone knows everyone in the WCS server. Some people do not enjoy losing and always join up with people they consider great players. 9 times out of 10 if I join a team first all the good players and/or regulars will stack my team. The new people of the wcs server either auto or get sent to the other team because usually people will wait it out.

I would rather it be forced auto assign then an idea like this even hitting the server.

[Wolfenstinger]

The only downside to this is that... well, I don't like playing with items personally. Especially on Vagalion at least. The reason behind it is so when I tele around and cross paths with another vaga that may have a necklace of immunity, they keep going and I just chill. Other reasons behind my no items play, but that's just one of the few.

So, perhaps a way we could also destroy the items or be given the option to take the item if we want it?

[maynard]

people need 2 realize this idea just hit the table... asking specifics on how it will work is pointless as it's an idea that literally just came into play.

I have no problem with the idea and am fine with it, but it most deff wont fix team stacking.

[DJ_MikeyRevile]

Any variant of this idea would be nice to come home too. +1

OP add a poll.

[CYBER]

My opinion is it's a bad idea because then everyone would be rolling items almost constantly. Now the money sink of items is cut big time and when the winning team does happen to lose a few people, the next round they will get a kill or two and max items. The sword works both ways. This idea will devalue items since everyone will have them almost all the time. I personally don't think helm and lace being more common then they already are is even close to a good idea. I like the choice of either a lace or a rifle at the round beginning, it adds skill to the game.

ZERO many things have been discussed to fix this issue of team stacking and something like this would not resolve the issue, it may even make it worse and imo would lower the skill ceiling of the wcs server.

The /scramble idea someone posted would work great.
Forced auto assign would work great.
Remove level cap would help.
The idea in admin section would work great.

The heart of the team balance issue is everyone knows everyone in the WCS server. Some people do not enjoy losing and always join up with people they consider great players. 9 times out of 10 if I join a team first all the good players and/or regulars will stack my team. The new people of the wcs server either auto or get sent to the other team because usually people will wait it out.

I would rather it be forced auto assign then an idea like this even hitting the server.

i mentioned my concerns about the looting idea above. To be honest, as much as this idea would benefit me since I am always the one switching to the losing team, I still think it's very clunky IN RESPECT to other ideas mentionned.

So far, and I mentioned this before in a thread I made called "Played WCS on Another Server", I said that the best option i've seen in wcs servers is a !scramble option.

2 ways to trigger it:
1- 55% of players in game type !scramble. This would mean that an entire losing team AND a couple from the winning team agree that the game is not fun at the moment because it's stacked. Believe me, even people leading the winning team like Tom and I and Spasm etc will cast our vote for that since we really don't care where we play...

2- Seeing that (1) depends on common courtesy, which is lacking in our servers, this is a failsafe trigger. When a team has won 4 times IN A ROW it would generally mean that the losing team tried all options and are still losing. A !scramble will trigger then, and the counter is reset.

A forced !scramble that takes into account restricted races (by either skipping people on restricted races or better yet, by swapping people with same restricted race on both teams), that would be the best solution that doesn't ruin the MECHANICS of wcs, or severely alter them.

[ZERO]

This is what I am thinking of doing.

Restrictions would carry. Items would go directly to player who got the kill. Dropped items will be undroppable by the player that got them. A command to destroy all items you picked up will be created. A player will be able to drop items they still hold the round after they got them. If more items drop than the player has available item slots for them, what they get will be randomly selected from the available group. Races that have item like abilities do not count as items, only items actually purchased via the shopmenu do.

Also I could make it so that the chance to drop anything is random. As has been stated it can not be said what this will do to balance until actually implemented. However, it is likely that it will not make balance any worse.

[Spasm]

Also I could make it so that the chance to drop anything is random. As has been stated it can not be said what this will do to balance until actually implemented. However, it is likely that it will not make balance any worse.

But it will make the wcs server worse in that money in the game is now extremely devalued and items as well. Think about what you are implementing before you do it...

[acolyte_to_jippity]

But it will make the wcs server worse in that money in the game is now extremely devalued and items as well. Think about what you are implementing before you do it...

pretty much this here.

i really don't think this would add anything to the game.

[StarsMine]

I dont think it would devalue money to much if its say 25% chance of changing hands and can only be changed hands twice or thrice.

[CYBER]

I dont think it would devalue money to much if its say 25% chance of changing hands and can only be changed hands twice or thrice.

but I am failing to get a ruling on this:
Does loot drop for ANYONE? or simply the losing team?
Because if the winning team, who is already RAMPAGING the other team, can also collect loot from those poor bastards who barely afforded a lace?...
Yeah, talk about making them even more stacked...

And how about this? Instead of dropping an entire loot ITEM, how about we trade them off for "powerups" for items we ALREADY HAVE. For example, if I killed an enemy, it checks if they have a common item i ALREADY had, and add a % to my item's strength.

For example, If i had a health, and i killed a human with health pack, my health packs would stack and give me 75 health increase instead of 50 health, with a cap limit of 2 stack-ables of course (max +cap%).
Same for other items like lace (increased range), helm (increased %), antiwards (increased duration), claw (increased dmg or proc), mask (increased proc or leech), ...etc...

This way, in order to actually GET ANYTHING (1 random item) from the loot, you'd have to have bought it in the first place. this will make the shopmenu indispensable for ultimately buying and earning "items", as opposed to the current suggested idea that REALLY hampers the money/shop market...

Thoughts?

[Bane of Soldiers]

To add on to the first post regarding health and ankh, if loots were enabled, I think cloak, helm, and scroll would be expended on death and should not be eligible for looting and be considered "destroyed" or "worn." I'd prefer if only offense or mobility increasing items were made available at the very most; anything that buffs your target shouldn't be loot-able. Oh, except for lace. I'm getting the feeling that the laces were the original plan for aiding the losing team.


And I have to agree with the others. It still is an interesting idea, but it depends on how often these items will be traded from hand to hand. With the devaluing of shopmenu items, in game purchases (for non maxed players) will deviate away from the traditional choice between "gun, tome, item." On the extreme side where looting is not tweaked, I wouldn't need to ever buy anything; I can get a gun from a corpse, and xp and items from kills. Since I don't want to give the other team items, I might not buy them at all and just buy a lot of tomes. People already do this, but tome demand will probably rocket upwards for players who are far enough along their races, those between levels 100 and 800. If I don't need to level, I might just buy weapons and very carefully consider if I should be carrying items, and then what. Some high level players might not ever have to worry about dying or giving up an item, but it would have a profound effect on general server attitude towards shopmenu items, an impact that I don't think is healthy. Demand for items would probably take a beating. The increase in accessibility of shopmenu items should warrant some sort price increase of items. That would throw off how a game starts. Now I know that such a looting system would not open the valves as widely as suggested, but with the poor translation from forum to game, these are along the lines of the effects I expect if item looting was enabled.


This way, in order to actually GET ANYTHING (1 random item) from the loot, you'd have to have bought it in the first place. this will make the shopmenu indispensable for ultimately buying and earning "items", as opposed to the current suggested idea that REALLY hampers the money/shop market...

Thoughts?
I haven't really thought your suggestion through, but I'm kinda hung up on the fact that those poor players on the losing team would be frightened to death of buying items that will likely go straight to their predators. Since the only people who will be eligible to loot (have items) will be the winning rich team.



I am probably really off with my prediction as I don't have as much WCS game time as others (on top of oversimplifying things), and thus not have enough player sample space to make any sort of adequate analysis. Also, I am very sleepy and will likely gawk at what I typed here in the morning.

[CYBER]

To add on to the first post regarding health and ankh, if loots were enabled, I think cloak, helm, and scroll would be expended on death and should not be eligible for looting and be considered "destroyed" or "worn." I'd prefer if only offense or mobility increasing items were made available at the very most; anything that buffs your target shouldn't be loot-able. Oh, except for lace. I'm getting the feeling that the laces were the original plan for aiding the losing team.


And I have to agree with the others. It still is an interesting idea, but it depends on how often these items will be traded from hand to hand. With the devaluing of shopmenu items, in game purchases (for non maxed players) will deviate away from the traditional choice between "gun, tome, item." On the extreme side where looting is not tweaked, I wouldn't need to ever buy anything; I can get a gun from a corpse, and xp and items from kills. Since I don't want to give the other team items, I might not buy them at all and just buy a lot of tomes. People already do this, but tome demand will probably rocket upwards for players who are far enough along their races, those between levels 100 and 800. If I don't need to level, I might just buy weapons and very carefully consider if I should be carrying items, and then what. Some high level players might not ever have to worry about dying or giving up an item, but it would have a profound effect on general server attitude towards shopmenu items, an impact that I don't think is healthy. Demand for items would probably take a beating. The increase in accessibility of shopmenu items should warrant some sort price increase of items. That would throw off how a game starts. Now I know that such a looting system would not open the valves as widely as suggested, but with the poor translation from forum to game, these are along the lines of the effects I expect if item looting was enabled.


I haven't really thought your suggestion through, but I'm kinda hung up on the fact that those poor players on the losing team would be frightened to death of buying items that will likely go straight to their predators. Since the only people who will be eligible to loot (have items) will be the winning rich team.



I am probably really off with my prediction as I don't have as much WCS game time as others (on top of oversimplifying things), and thus not have enough player sample space to make any sort of adequate analysis. Also, I am very sleepy and will likely gawk at what I typed here in the morning.

yeah i forgot to emphasize a key point which i thought i made earlier: loot can only be earned by the loosing team...

[Crazyyoshi]

My thoughts about how loot should go out before i posted are as follows. since there can be a max of 20 per team we do the top player as the "boss". So you kill the boss/top player and they drop there loot. I like the idea of the top 3 out of 20. And you can take it further from there. Say it starts when the winning team gets 7 people on it. But only the top person drops loot then. so 1 out of 7. Then it only jumps up when its 2 out of 14. Then to 3 out of 20. If that makes sence.
That way there isn't a large amount of items being thrown around. I think loot should be to everyone who damages the person. So people who are on the other side of the map cant get "loot" from them. And only 1 item can be picked up if wanted. So people can't all of a sudden be "geared out".
I agree with only the loosing team getting items. Seeing as when there are people stacking one side, its easy to get to 16k money and full items in no time. So the value of money on the game is down then and people on the other team need to choose between a gun or item before they die, again. I'm not posting it here to balnce the game. This in no way will balance the game fully imo. I feel that is the admins and if you choose to implement just auto assign. But i this thread isn't about how to balance the teams. Its about how to make WCS more WCS.

[Masskid]

My thoughts about how loot should go out before i posted are as follows. since there can be a max of 20 per team we do the top player as the "boss". So you kill the boss/top player and they drop there loot. I like the idea of the top 3 out of 20. And you can take it further from there. Say it starts when the winning team gets 7 people on it. But only the top person drops loot then. so 1 out of 7. Then it only jumps up when its 2 out of 14. Then to 3 out of 20. If that makes sense.
I'm sorry since when could we have 20 people on one team -_-

[CYBER]

I'm sorry since when could we have 20 people on one team -_-yeah. I meant a specific percentage of the winning team. Top 1/2+ players, 2/5+, 3/7+ max players of winning team will give out loot to members of the losing team... Oh god, hunting me as vaga on winning team is gonna be the highlight of the games -.- ... As if i wasnt already getting tired of Tom and Britney hunting me down when no one else consistently can-.-

[What]

I don't love it, but some form of percentage chance wouldn't be the end of the world. The problem i see is that the team which is doing the rapeing has a chance of getting items, and therefore saving money to allow even more rapeing to occur. It may however, help to lessen som camping since you could walk over a corpse to gain the item, but wouldn't this also mean someone else could get the item, even their own teammate?