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ZERO
01-06-2013, 08:41 PM
On the test server is the beta release of the shop menu balance system. Currently it will apply to all items for testing as to verify if it works at all. Here is how it is configured to work:


Applies 5% discount to items after enemy team is >2 wins above you
Applies additional 5% for each win above you so that 3 wins above = 10% and 4 wins = 15%
Decimal results are rounded up
Discount is capped at 75%


Please test and post results. Also please start to list what items should not be discounted so far all I can think of is the tome.

Spasm
01-06-2013, 08:42 PM
nice real nice:wtg:

What
01-06-2013, 08:49 PM
Does the discount end once your team starts to win? I can see a team being down say, 8-0, people rage, autobalance kicks in and then people with money are on the other team, and can buy whatever they want for cheap, or maybe im just crazy paranoid.

As far as items which shouldn't be discounted: How about a different limit on how cheap the lace and ankh go, since a super cheap ankh means that you should have money to spend on other items anyway. And the Lace is obviously the most important thing, but since it is the only item people getting their ass kicked should be buying, its where their money should be going. I know you can't fix stupid, but people aren't clamoring for sock of feather or flaming gloves of warmth.

So overall, Tome, lace, ankh are the most vital items, so maybe a scaled discount to represent that? Not a cheaper tome of course.

But I'd be interested in seeing how the testing goes, I may be off base.

Spasm
01-06-2013, 09:31 PM
Does the discount end once your team starts to win? I can see a team being down say, 8-0, people rage, autobalance kicks in and then people with money are on the other team, and can buy whatever they want for cheap, or maybe im just crazy paranoid.

As far as items which shouldn't be discounted: How about a different limit on how cheap the lace and ankh go, since a super cheap ankh means that you should have money to spend on other items anyway. And the Lace is obviously the most important thing, but since it is the only item people getting their ass kicked should be buying, its where their money should be going. I know you can't fix stupid, but people aren't clamoring for sock of feather or flaming gloves of warmth.

So overall, Tome, lace, ankh are the most vital items, so maybe a scaled discount to represent that? Not a cheaper tome of course.

But I'd be interested in seeing how the testing goes, I may be off base.

All items need to be discounted so the losing team has a chance.

ZERO I would actually recommend a discount rate that it not linear. Say until one team is up 3 wins the items should be the same then something like this

4 - 25%
5 - 35%
6 - 45%
7 - 55%
8 - 60%
9 - 65%
10+ 75%

My main reason being is I believe 5% is too slow and most maps are over by around 13 rounds or so unless it is extended. The max limit would still be 75% but a faster build up then you planned, as your current 5% rate means 17 rounds to get the max discount and if it's 17-0 which I have seen it many times, usually the map is only a few rounds from being over at that point. Furthermore it also would lower the discount quicker if the losing team becomes stacked from say team switchers or new people joining the server.

Erdenay
01-06-2013, 09:41 PM
I like the idea, but the current distribution is not a good idea, IMHO. If one of the team losing team suddenly is on a streak (lets say they were down 12-0 but now they won 5 in a row), these discounts should be negated.

What
01-06-2013, 09:42 PM
I like that, It would lower the discount quicker, but what about, and no idea if you can program this, after 3 consecutive wins, by a team the discount goes away, until they lose again, and the scaling kicks back in? I am wary that this wont so much balance as much as having one team lose 8 times in a row, then the other do the same.

Edit:
Also as far as items which shouldn't be discounted, consider the scroll of respawning

ZERO
01-06-2013, 11:03 PM
K.I.S.S. :wtg:

---------- Post added at 10:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:53 PM ----------

Beta testing shows the program is working 100% on all items and tome is restricted from the discount.

---------- Post added at 11:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:54 PM ----------

Current maths for those interested:

//Subtract the number of difference balance should start at and mult the amount of discount to apply per level of difference
new Float:balanceMult = (GetTeamScore(EmemyTeam)-GetTeamScore(ClientTeam)-1)*0.05;

//Apply limit to max discount
if(balanceMult>0.75)
{
balanceMult=0.75;
}

//Inverse the balanceMult as to deduct that % from the initial cost
balanceMult=1-balanceMult;

Assassin
01-07-2013, 02:07 AM
K.I.S.S. :wtg:

---------- Post added at 10:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:53 PM ----------

Beta testing shows the program is working 100% on all items and tome is restricted from the discount.

---------- Post added at 11:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:54 PM ----------

Current maths for those interested:

//Subtract the number of difference balance should start at and mult the amount of discount to apply per level of difference
new Float:balanceMult = (GetTeamScore(EmemyTeam)-GetTeamScore(ClientTeam)-1)*0.05;

//Apply limit to max discount
if(balanceMult>0.75)
{
balanceMult=0.75;
}

//Inverse the balanceMult as to deduct that % from the initial cost
balanceMult=1-balanceMult;

Obviously not all of it but looks clean.

maynard
01-07-2013, 10:40 AM
On the test server is the beta release of the shop menu balance system. Currently it will apply to all items for testing as to verify if it works at all. Here is how it is configured to work:


Applies 5% discount to items after enemy team is >2 wins above you
Applies additional 5% for each win above you so that 3 wins above = 10% and 4 wins = 15%
Decimal results are rounded up
Discount is capped at 75%


Please test and post results. Also please start to list what items should not be discounted so far all I can think of is the tome.

this pleases me.

CYBER
01-07-2013, 12:57 PM
All items need to be discounted so the losing team has a chance.

ZERO I would actually recommend a discount rate that it not linear. Say until one team is up 3 wins the items should be the same then something like this

4 - 25%
5 - 35%
6 - 45%
7 - 55%
8 - 60%
9 - 65%
10+ 75%

My main reason being is I believe 5% is too slow and most maps are over by around 13 rounds or so unless it is extended. The max limit would still be 75% but a faster build up then you planned, as your current 5% rate means 17 rounds to get the max discount and if it's 17-0 which I have seen it many times, usually the map is only a few rounds from being over at that point. Furthermore it also would lower the discount quicker if the losing team becomes stacked from say team switchers or new people joining the server.

I like this distribution more. For the same reasons spasm said.

HOWEVER, as what said above, i think that if the "loosing" team wins 3 rounds IN A ROW, it should mean that they no longer require the discounts to survive. I think that he's right: if any team wins THREE rounds in a row, it should disable the discount system. And if they lose a round, that's when the appropriate discount is applied (depending on the new margin between the team scores.).

Eitherway, good work. this should at least help out in balancing, slightly.

maynard
01-07-2013, 12:59 PM
gonna agree with spasm. if the losing team starts winning and flipping the coin on the winning team, it's obvious the system is working and after x amount of wins it should shut off 2 have a level playing field again.

ZERO
01-07-2013, 03:19 PM
I have made changes to the shop menu as to help reduce glitches and crashes when weapons are removed and given back to players. I have also removed the loop that gave nades every 10 seconds for gloves and instead you just get 99 nades. This will reduce glitches and improve performance.

---------- Post added at 03:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 PM ----------

I have bug tested and everything appears working fine. 24 hours to report new bugs with these changes and the updated shopmenu and engine will go live.

>>>Shots<<<
01-07-2013, 03:39 PM
I agree with the things cyber and spasm said. The shop menu balance would be great as a temporary fix for the unbalanced games we have now in wcs, but if we have a good autoteambalance system implemented, I don't think it would be necessary to have the shop menu balance anymore. The shopmenu balance pretty much promotes a situation that allows weaker players to get some easy kills on stronger players through item stacking instead of having strong players on opposite teams fighting eachother.
Still, I think it's a great work done by Zero. :wtg:

Erdenay
01-07-2013, 03:48 PM
I have made changes to the shop menu as to help reduce glitches and crashes when weapons are removed and given back to players. I have also removed the loop that gave nades every 10 seconds for gloves and instead you just get 99 nades. This will reduce glitches and improve performance.

---------- Post added at 03:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:12 PM ----------

I have bug tested and everything appears working fine. 24 hours to report new bugs with these changes and the updated shopmenu and engine will go live.

HORRIBLE idea.

maynard
01-07-2013, 04:07 PM
I agree with the erdenay... this basically will give any race a stupid amount of nades... and could real easily unbalance the game in general.

the item needs a serious raise in price, or the nade amount seriously lowered.... or both.

something like 10 nades would be far more legit, with a decent price for the item. cause the issue is, you can now just throw nade after nade... there is no 10 second cool down which is quite important... any race with +dmg on nades could become REALLY unbalanced as they would just spam nades.

CYBER
01-07-2013, 04:15 PM
I agree with the erdenay... this basically will give any race a stupid amount of nades... and could real easily unbalance the game in general.the item needs a serious raise in price, or the nade amount seriously lowered.... or both.something like 10 nades would be far more legit, with a decent price for the item. cause the issue is, you can now just throw nade after nade... there is no 10 second cool down which is quite important... any race with +dmg on nades could become REALLY unbalanced as they would just spam nades.i also agree with tom. I came here just to say 'let the raiden/geno nade spamming begin!..." ... Now i also think that maynard really cut it down. Let's say that u get a nade every 10 seconds. This would mean that within a round, u should be able to collect about 180/10= 18 nades. Lets round it down to 15 (hurray for crappy math) and thats how many nades u could use at most. Chose to use them all to kill 1 stupid dodgig vaga, or use them wisely 1 at time. It's ur choice. But 99 grenades is REALLY A bad idea. 15-20 seems more reasonable considering some map sizes.

What
01-07-2013, 04:16 PM
I have made changes to the shop menu as to help reduce glitches and crashes when weapons are removed and given back to players. I have also removed the loop that gave nades every 10 seconds for gloves and instead you just get 99 nades. This will reduce glitches and improve performance.
.

That seems like it could go bad quick. While it would actually make the item useful, something like a raiden could go spam happy, and even other races who have effects on damage could become really annoying. Perhaps fewer grenades, I would suggest to keep it the way it was, but if its a performance issue it is better to have a newer system.

ZERO
01-07-2013, 04:18 PM
I agree with the erdenay... this basically will give any race a stupid amount of nades... and could real easily unbalance the game in general.

the item needs a serious raise in price, or the nade amount seriously lowered.... or both.

something like 10 nades would be far more legit, with a decent price for the item. cause the issue is, you can now just throw nade after nade... there is no 10 second cool down which is quite important... any race with +dmg on nades could become REALLY unbalanced as they would just spam nades.

It now works exactly as it did in the original wcs in that you have a nade right after you tossed your last one...

maynard
01-07-2013, 04:18 PM
no. 20 is way 2 fucking much, cause you're not waiting for your next nade, you can sit there and just spam them, and 20 nades with a class like orc would seriously fuck everything up.

the issue is spamming, that's it.

Masskid
01-07-2013, 04:20 PM
99 is way to much.... talk about nade spam centeral

maynard
01-07-2013, 04:22 PM
99 is way to much.... talk about nade spam centeral

even 20 would be nade spam... imagine you got 2 ct's on office, just hacking nade after nade at the T spawn... it's just not right... it's nothing but spam and will beyond unbalance everything. I don't want 2 see the server become a fucking nade fest non stop cause that's all it will be.

if we're going 2 remove the time delay, which is what prevented people from spamming the nades, we need 2 seriously limit the amount of them you get.

ZERO
01-07-2013, 04:23 PM
Also as for how bad the code was before this change: it would every 10 seconds run a loop that checks every player if they have gloves if they are alive and if they do not have a nade and if they do not it gives them one. In the original wcs it just gave you a new nade after you tossed your old one.

CYBER
01-07-2013, 04:24 PM
no. 20 is way 2 fucking much, cause you're not waiting for your next nade, you can sit there and just spam them, and 20 nades with a class like orc would seriously fuck everything up.the issue is spamming, that's it.orc cant get gloves :) and i also lowered it to 15 before i saw ur comment. I was thinking that 15 grenades for 2.5-3k shouldnt be a big deal...I mean santas get 10 nades free lol..

Not to mention that ppl who stay in spawn were able to nade-purchase-spam grenades while that 10s cooldown triggered... Its costy? Sure. But was spammable even with the delay? Also applied..
as for what zero just said. U get a nade as soon as u throw ur other one, is there a cap on how many times that happens??:O

ZERO
01-07-2013, 04:25 PM
What I could do which is a lot more complex is do exactly how it worked on the old wcs but not give them the nade until 5 sec has passed. This will result in the code and timers only running when a player has thrown a nade so it is still faster than it running all the time.

maynard
01-07-2013, 04:26 PM
the focus back then was learning the servers races, finding all the best little things you could do and counters, leveling the races... as where most regulars now have damn near everything maxed and just wana have some fun and pwwn... the mentality and play style has seriously changed since those days. This would be something that would end up getting over used, and would just make everything shit.

I'm all for the getting a set nade amount so we can prevent glitches and what not, but the nade limit needs 2 be seriously lowered.

20 or lower... id like 2 see it lower than 20... but anything above that is just fucking crazy.

Masskid
01-07-2013, 05:35 PM
even 20 would be nade spam... imagine you got 2 ct's on office, just hacking nade after nade at the T spawn... it's just not right... it's nothing but spam and will beyond unbalance everything. I don't want 2 see the server become a fucking nade fest non stop cause that's all it will be.

if we're going 2 remove the time delay, which is what prevented people from spamming the nades, we need 2 seriously limit the amount of them you get.

Played hell hunter on test server.... killed someone with only the flames before they could walk through the fire

Spasm
01-07-2013, 06:47 PM
maybe zero you could change the timer to say 45 seconds with the gloves giving 5 nades at that time, that way the timer is every 45 seconds instead of 10, increasing performance.

What
01-07-2013, 07:15 PM
maybe zero you could change the timer to say 45 seconds with the gloves giving 5 nades at that time, that way the timer is every 45 seconds instead of 10, increasing performance.


The problem with the cycle though seems to be that if you run out of nades, and its 3 seconds before the timer goes off, you get more nades in 3 seconds, but if you run out at the end of a cycle then you are looking at having to wait 45 seconds for more nades, and by then you are likely already dead.

Spasm
01-07-2013, 07:17 PM
The problem with the cycle though seems to be that if you run out of nades, and its 3 seconds before the timer goes off, you get more nades in 3 seconds, but if you run out at the end of a cycle then you are looking at having to wait 45 seconds for more nades, and by then you are likely already dead.
if your basing your entire gameplan on spamming nades then yes, but people do buy guns...

What
01-07-2013, 07:29 PM
if your basing your entire gameplan on spamming nades then yes, but people do buy guns...

Ok dead was a poor choice of words, lets say round over. Even if i want to spam, and im gonna be smart about it, depending on the map, id wait lets say 15-20 seconds before i start tossing, and i wouldn't do one after another. By the time 1:30 is off of the clock(time after system cycles twice), me getting extra nades is kind of useless since if the round isn't over, its damn close and nades are not gonna help. As it is now i have the potential to spam 13 grenades in that time period, so that change would actually make the gloves less effective.

Erdenay
01-07-2013, 08:04 PM
no. 20 is way 2 fucking much, cause you're not waiting for your next nade, you can sit there and just spam them, and 20 nades with a class like orc would seriously fuck everything up.

the issue is spamming, that's it.

This. Orc can't buy gloves, but raiden's/genocide's nades are almost as good and 20 nades is WAY too much. Especially since you can replace gloves and then buy them again quite cheaply. NO. Horrible fucking idea.


What I could do which is a lot more complex is do exactly how it worked on the old wcs but not give them the nade until 5 sec has passed. This will result in the code and timers only running when a player has thrown a nade so it is still faster than it running all the time.

Make it 10.

ZERO
01-07-2013, 11:43 PM
The reason that it would be 5 is that it would maintain the way it works on avg now. Remember that the timer is independent as to when you threw the nade and thus basically 10% of the time you will instantly get a nade and 10% of the time you will wait 10 seconds.

Event A occurs randomly and Event B occurs every 10 seconds so on average what is the time most likely on average before you can use?
1 = 10%
2 = 10%
3 = 10%
4 = 10%
5 = 10%
6 = 10%
7 = 10%
8 = 10%
9 = 10%
10 = 10%

(1+2+3+4+5+6+7+8+9+10)/10=5.5

In theory my more complex method of doing it could make the length of wait after using the nade random within a range however I figured that the item would be more logical is the delay was know or could be deduced.

So if you guys want me to spend time to do this the complex but better way then let me know if you would rather have a random wait time or a static one, the static one will be 5 seconds. A random time can be anything you guys want to do. For example it could be 1-10 or 3-6 or whatever.

What
01-08-2013, 01:06 AM
The reason that it would be 5 is that it would maintain the way it works on avg now. Remember that the timer is independent as to when you threw the nade and thus basically 10% of the time you will instantly get a nade and 10% of the time you will wait 10 seconds.
.

Is it possible to make the timer dependent on when the nade is thrown, so that every 5 seconds you get a nade, no matter what?

maynard
01-08-2013, 01:17 AM
orc cant get gloves :)

doesn't matter as any class with abilities on nades will = overpowered.

and it would be very annoying if the server just turned into a nade fest.

ZERO
01-08-2013, 02:08 AM
That is what I am saying is that when it is thrown you will get the nade after a 5 sec day. It is more complex to implement but still will run better than having a constant repeating loop.

What
01-08-2013, 02:16 AM
That is what I am saying is that when it is thrown you will get the nade after a 5 sec day. It is more complex to implement but still will run better than having a constant repeating loop.

That sounds good, but once its on the test server we can see if that time is too short/long. I'm sure once you get the code for it the time can be changed relatively easily. With that your looking at 20 nades a minute if you constantly throw it on the right time, figure there will be some delay in timing so around 17 nades a minute, then your looking at around 51 nades a round if there is constant spamming until the timer runs out. Realistically I don't see that happening all too often, true on some maps like crack house or office it could get really old really quick, but if there is a nade in your hand you are shot pretty easily. At any rate at least this item would be purchased now so its definitely an improvement.

Edit: How long does it take for a nade to explode once its thrown? a slight delay between this and when you get your next nade may help to prevent a constant spam wall of nade.

maynard
01-08-2013, 02:27 AM
That is what I am saying is that when it is thrown you will get the nade after a 5 sec day. It is more complex to implement but still will run better than having a constant repeating loop.

excellent

ZERO
01-08-2013, 03:29 PM
Oh I should mention that this new method of nade tracking and giving also can add an effect to the nades thrown when one has this item. Would you all like to see any sort of effect added to this item and if so what. I can do things like add a trailing effect behind the nade.

---------- Post added at 03:22 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:15 PM ----------

First beta release of new gloves plugin is live. I have split it off into its own plugin instead of having it in the shopmenu directly. This makes things much easier to update and preform bugfixes. In the future I hope to actually use seprate plugins for every shop menu item possible b/c it makes things much easier to fix without risk of intruducing bugs.

---------- Post added at 03:29 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:22 PM ----------

Tested and it works as intended. I can also make it do something when your given a nade from this item like a message, sound or effect. Let me know if you all want this item to be spruced up a bit and what sort of stuff you would like to see.

Sin
01-08-2013, 04:04 PM
Shouldn't the default "nade pickup" sound be enough for that?

ZERO
01-08-2013, 04:18 PM
Yes but I can add a txt message or anything else.

maynard
01-08-2013, 04:26 PM
I prefer there be no effect.

with an effect you will know that it's someone who has the item, and more nades... and that there will most likely be more of them coming your way soon... it's also generally the classes that have abilities on nades who purchase the item... so if you see some form of effect, you'll know 2 stay back and play it safe... I like the concept of people fearing nades all the times as they wont know if it's just a standard nade, or one that most likely has a ability on it 2 boot.

ZERO
01-08-2013, 04:38 PM
Rgr, with that I will now give 6 hours to report any bugs with the system currently in place on the test server. After that all current changes will go live. :wtg:

Erdenay
01-08-2013, 06:30 PM
Agreed - no effects are necessary.

ZERO
01-09-2013, 12:41 AM
changes are live

What
01-12-2013, 11:25 PM
So far has been working well at providing the losing team a chance to get some wins, but not enough where bad players become good. Like it.

CYBER
01-13-2013, 12:57 AM
I like the system. It helped unstacking BIG TIME.

However i do have a concern. Personally, if the loosing team wins 8 times in a row, then clearly the system did it's job in counter balancing the game. But i personally think that if the loosing team wins 4 times in a row, the system should reset (no discount) since they already have the upper hand and stacked cheap items. (at least until they lose twice in a row again)

Now the 'winning' team is struggling to buy shit at higher prices. This can lead the loosing team to tie up the winner almost instantly and simply becomes a battle of 'i managed to get more items than u at cheaper prices, try to match my items at higher prices!"...

Again. At 4+ wins, the discount should stop. And ONLY reactivate if the loosing team (who won the last rounds) loses twice in a row again. This WILL prove that the only thing balancing the game was their shop, and they can have it back.
But if they didnt lose twice in a row, then the system did what it had to do and to keep giving that second team discounted item is overkilling it...

The objective of playing css is not for one team to win 10 times in a row, then the other team nail the winnin team all the way back to a tie with countinuously discounted shit... Makes no sense! The system is there to give theloosig team a PUSH, not make them item-stacking-op-whores...

also, on another note. SCROLLS OF RESPAWN should be capped at a -50% off at most.
I was playing yesterday with balto on 1 team. Pretty much him and I were the entire T side team, doing most of the raping work. we probably went 15-0 right off the bat.
The shop menu kicks in , thats neat... but to go all the way to them tie-ing our game AND winning us 18-16 ? come ON...
Clearly it's no longer a player stacking scenario, but an item-stacking fest...

and there's my comment about the scrolls... the ONE time we had a chance to win, the entire team scrolled back in game with a 2.2k scroll...
And we killed half of them? oh no nevermind, they RESCROLLED back in...AGAIN... and AGAIN... and AGAIN... thats more respawns than bloodmages!
I mean seriously... if you can buy 7 scrolls per game just because you happened to be on the losing team? it makes it impossible for the "winning" team to even win anymore...
I might as well play the first 15 rounds on 1 team, and switch to the other one.... (which would be an exploit of the system to gain an item advantage),
but it would be better than having an immortal enemy that keeps reviving with cheap scrolls..

Again, scrolls should be capped at a 4k price minimum at most.

What
01-14-2013, 02:16 PM
I second the cap on the price of a scroll, its the only item that seems to be unfairly benefited from a lower price.

Erdenay
01-14-2013, 04:25 PM
That's what I've said as soon as this idea got out... However, Zero has a different idea of balance (or so I've understood) and if it the end of the round the score is 16-16, it's balanced, if it was 16 wins a row for one of the teams... I'd rather not see that, but oh well...

CYBER
01-14-2013, 06:47 PM
That's what I've said as soon as this idea got out... However, Zero has a different idea of balance (or so I've understood) and if it the end of the round the score is 16-16, it's balanced, if it was 16 wins a row for one of the teams... I'd rather not see that, but oh well...

No. This could be just my opinion, but having one team go 15-0 straight, and then the other team going 0-15 to tie up the game at 15-15 is NOT a balanced game...

It's just a balance swivel, from team stacking of team A to item stacking of team B.
For the people on the loosing team, this SEEMS like an unstacking solution in the heat of the moment, fine.

But overall, looking at an entire game, the system did not help BALANCE teams, NO. It helped SHIFT the balance 100% from team A to team B.
Ever since the system was implemented, I've yet to see a game truely go head to head between teams. It's always a rampage from Team A, followed by a counter rampaged from team B.

It feels like "winning a game" with your team is no longer a goal in the game if it will always end up with this tied scenario, and it's actually encouraging people to have their team get raped originally (by "accidentally" letting the bomb explode or smthn) in order to get the item discounts, making them whore more items and get a higher kdr ...

but wtvr, I mentionned the ONLY solution that will EVER get wcs balanced, and it's the !scramble idea.
I know you might not like this idea zero because you might have the mentality that no-one should be forced to play on a team they didn't want to...
But that's the only solution for a pure balanced game...

Anyway, i digress, but if you guys STILL insist on this system, which is only a temp solution in my books, then at least cap the scrolls.

I intentionally went as an itemless jack for 6 rounds yesterday against a stacked team that had respawners, i got my share of kills but we lost those rounds, and then 1 round, spawned as a crypt lord with a cheap ankh and ak.
And i told my friend to just HIDE somewhere.

Every time they killed me, i scrolled back, about 7 times in a row, and hit the locust swarm and randomly sacrifice myself (guns blazing) until the other team (who respawned) got their health slowly depleated before the end of the round. We won the round, fine, but was it balanced? was it an "achievement" ? no. I just whored the shit about scrolls... and i STILL had money to spare on lace health helm if i wanted to finish the round off with an op human... or molecule.

2k scrolls are OP, thats the main reason we increased their prices from 3.5 k to 7.5k in the first place!

As spasm horribly mentionned : I can just imagine people only playing magician, die, and continuously scroll back until they get their bird, especially if they got a respawner respawning ppl too... and the same goes for voids...

Again, Cap the scroll back at 4k.

Spasm
01-14-2013, 08:27 PM
No. This could be just my opinion, but having one team go 15-0 straight, and then the other team going 0-15 to tie up the game at 15-15 is NOT a balanced game...

It's just a balance swivel, from team stacking of team A to item stacking of team B.
For the people on the loosing team, this SEEMS like an unstacking solution in the heat of the moment, fine.

But overall, looking at an entire game, the system did not help BALANCE teams, NO. It helped SHIFT the balance 100% from team A to team B.
Ever since the system was implemented, I've yet to see a game truely go head to head between teams. It's always a rampage from Team A, followed by a counter rampaged from team B.

It feels like "winning a game" with your team is no longer a goal in the game if it will always end up with this tied scenario, and it's actually encouraging people to have their team get raped originally (by "accidentally" letting the bomb explode or smthn) in order to get the item discounts, making them whore more items and get a higher kdr ...

but wtvr, I mentionned the ONLY solution that will EVER get wcs balanced, and it's the !scramble idea.
I know you might not like this idea zero because you might have the mentality that no-one should be forced to play on a team they didn't want to...
But that's the only solution for a pure balanced game...

Anyway, i digress, but if you guys STILL insist on this system, which is only a temp solution in my books, then at least cap the scrolls.

I intentionally went as an itemless jack for 6 rounds yesterday against a stacked team that had respawners, i got my share of kills but we lost those rounds, and then 1 round, spawned as a crypt lord with a cheap ankh and ak.
And i told my friend to just HIDE somewhere.

Every time they killed me, i scrolled back, about 7 times in a row, and hit the locust swarm and randomly sacrifice myself (guns blazing) until the other team (who respawned) got their health slowly depleated before the end of the round. We won the round, fine, but was it balanced? was it an "achievement" ? no. I just whored the shit about scrolls... and i STILL had money to spare on lace health helm if i wanted to finish the round off with an op human... or molecule.

2k scrolls are OP, thats the main reason we increased their prices from 3.5 k to 7.5k in the first place!

As spasm horribly mentionned : I can just imagine people only playing magician, die, and continuously scroll back until they get their bird, especially if they got a respawner respawning ppl too... and the same goes for voids...

Again, Cap the scroll back at 4k.

Agree with most of this except /scramble being the only way to balance teams, forced auto assign is another option. I don't really mind the scrolls honestly because old school WCS server they were 3500.

If this is the way we are going forward I still recommend a faster exchange on item sales so that when the other team does start winning, it doesn't let them keep the item advantage for long. Also a faster discount would even the teams a lot quicker then the slow 5%.

ZERO
01-14-2013, 09:42 PM
The price of the scrolls should go up when they start winning but from what your saying it makes it sound like the were scrolling when the score was closer to even. Also I can change the cap on items from 75% to 50% if that is what we want.

What
01-14-2013, 10:41 PM
The price of the scrolls should go up when they start winning but from what your saying it makes it sound like the were scrolling when the score was closer to even. Also I can change the cap on items from 75% to 50% if that is what we want.

meh, the money is really only an issue when players switch from the winning team to the losing one to take advantage of it. I've still seen plenty 17-0 or there abouts, no matter how cheap the stuff is people still need to not suck and shoot straight.

The scroll thing is just damn annoying, since at its lowest people can scroll 3-4 times a round if they have the money, though i can't say i've ever actually seen this strategy be that successful

XX0wnsXY
01-15-2013, 12:17 AM
Nevermind..got my answer.

Blackmage
01-15-2013, 01:31 AM
The games still go to extremes, but this does bring games to equilibrium. Not a true equilibrium, because one team then has all the items, but much closer than what we had to do this before (aka: nothing)

Assassin
01-16-2013, 07:47 PM
The games still go to extremes, but this does bring games to equilibrium. Not a true equilibrium, because one team then has all the items, but much closer than what we had to do this before (aka: nothing)

This it isn't perfect but at least it is something in the right direction. Keep it up Zero.

CYBER
02-11-2013, 04:20 PM
ZERO, u asked me to post this as a reminder: you apparently took into liking of our brainstormed idea in game of making the shopmenu reflect individual wins on the winning team and not the whole team itself. U'd understand what i mean. Good luck programming that shit

ZERO
02-12-2013, 07:15 AM
For reference for everyone else. This change will be meant to ensure that it is actually impossible for people to game the system.

At the end of each round the server will count if you won or lost. It will then use that value to calculate prices unique to you for when you buy shop menu items. This prevents a player from trying to switch from a winning team to a losing one to get cheep stuff and people who late join getting a discount. The scaling on the discounts will remain the same as they are now.

Masskid
02-13-2013, 01:48 AM
For reference for everyone else. This change will be meant to ensure that it is actually impossible for people to game the system.

At the end of each round the server will count if you won or lost. It will then use that value to calculate prices unique to you for when you buy shop menu items. This prevents a player from trying to switch from a winning team to a losing one to get cheep stuff and people who late join getting a discount. The scaling on the discounts will remain the same as they are now.

I think it should also check the team score, like if you're on the losing team you switch to the wining team and you lose some discount but not all of it and the other way around like if the winner joins the losing team he gets a small discount to begin

ZERO
02-13-2013, 02:48 AM
I think the logic we are using here is that a winner is always a winner even if they switch to the losers...

CYBER
02-13-2013, 04:02 AM
I think the logic we are using here is that a winner is always a winner even if they switch to the losers...

just be careful in the programming of it.
You don't want someone who's been on the loosing team with 75% individual discount end up on the WINNING team (swapping there) and have him join the rampaging lead by his teammates AND retain his full discount.

Because that would exploit this shit even more.
Personally, I wouldn't mind losing my discount if i went from the loosing to the winning team for some reason, im not sure what others think though.

acolyte_to_jippity
02-13-2013, 04:04 AM
just be careful in the programming of it.
You don't want someone who's been on the loosing team with 75% individual discount end up on the WINNING team (swapping there) and have him join the rampaging lead by his teammates AND retain his full discount.

Because that would exploit this shit even more.
Personally, I wouldn't mind losing my discount if i went from the loosing to the winning team for some reason, im not sure what others think though.

how about, the discount resets to 0 upon team switch?

brett friggin favre
02-13-2013, 04:05 AM
if it's not being considered, there should be some thought given to late joiners. if you join late to a team losing 2-12, you should have item discounts to represent the fact that your team's getting facerolled, to start at least

acolyte_to_jippity
02-13-2013, 04:07 AM
if it's not being considered, there should be some thought given to late joiners. if you join late to a team losing 2-12, you should have item discounts to represent the fact that your team's getting facerolled, to start at least

why? a single player joining can immediately swing games, even when they're that far "behind". say spasm, or wolf join that losing team. no. people that join should start at 0 discount, and work their way up depending on their performance.

brett friggin favre
02-13-2013, 04:22 AM
why? a single player joining can immediately swing games, even when they're that far "behind". say spasm, or wolf join that losing team. no. people that join should start at 0 discount, and work their way up depending on their performance.

Well not everyone's spasm or wolf. Those guys will win 3-4 rounds (keep in mind they only start with $800) and the discount will go away because of individual wins, but the vast majority of the players will join, be on a losing team, and continue to lose and again, starting with $800, will need all the help they can get to try to turn it around.

CYBER
02-13-2013, 05:09 AM
why? a single player joining can immediately swing games, even when they're that far "behind". say spasm, or wolf join that losing team. no. people that join should start at 0 discount, and work their way up depending on their performance.i'd have to agree with this. The game can completely change with 1 guy joining.

Wolfenstinger
02-13-2013, 08:12 AM
i'd have to agree with this. The game can completely change with 1 guy joining.

Or 1 guy leaving the team.

CYBER
02-13-2013, 09:19 AM
Or 1 guy leaving the team.

well duh.
Think of how many times a team has been stacked because balto or aleko or spasm or someone good was on it.
The second they leave, you start noticing the other team win instantly sometimes. so yeah..

and just to prove my initial point, i cant tell you how many times my team would be dominating the enemy, and then tom joins, someone with actual BRAINS in game, and plays solely to counter my fucking ass and taking leadership of the other team.
Suddenly that team starts countering better, with or without the items because of the added player.
I would definitely not recommend someone just joining a losing team and getting cheap shit like that.


Besides brett, think about it. In order to get cheap items, u must have been losing round after round, and therefore affecting ur kdr and score. If anything it's a sacrifice to balance the almost free shit....

If you allow anyone to just join a team that's been loosing since forever and get the free perks without the actual "cost" ... yeah, im against that... Besides, people will still be able to cheat the system by leaving the game and coming back to the losing team... It's the gg handicap leveling exploit all over again...

brett friggin favre
02-13-2013, 12:16 PM
mm didn't think about exploiting it like that. guess im just a good little boy.

acolyte_to_jippity
02-13-2013, 02:19 PM
Well not everyone's spasm or wolf. Those guys will win 3-4 rounds (keep in mind they only start with $800) and the discount will go away because of individual wins, but the vast majority of the players will join, be on a losing team, and continue to lose and again, starting with $800, will need all the help they can get to try to turn it around.

also, this isn't league of legends or NS2. an early lead can't snowball as much as you seem to be thinking. after about 2-3 rounds, money will be fairly even if the losing team is at all smart with their buys.