Slaying the Vagamonster

[brett friggin favre]

The purpose of this post is not to qq about vagas, it's to show you why you shouldn't be qqing about vagas. The methods described below are honed through playing against spasm, shady, wolf, cyber, and other strong vagas.

1. Lace. Get one. Can't afford one? Change to a race that has free weapons (archmage, hell hunter, magician, dragonfly, jack) and spend your money on a lace. Or switch to a race that has a chance to have a free lace (athena, shadow of the void, warden). Also with the shopmenu price balance currently enabled, laces can get as cheap as around $1200 bucks if i remember, so GET ONE. It's the best way to deal with vagas but only if you use it properly. See below for details.

2. If the vaga's raping your team, stay away from wide open areas. This applies mostly to bond than lion, but their long range mobility in either case is their biggest weapon. Whether it's a bond sniping you from afar or a lion teleporting from across the map to backstab you...stay in enclosed areas. Combine this with a lace and you have a good chance of trapping and thereby neutralizing the vaga. Keep in mind vagabonds are efficient in long-range sniping AND in-your-face knifing, whereas vagalions can only knife.

3. Bait them. I love to do this with a speedy race like undead, stand at the opening to a tight area if you know a vaga is near you. Watch him teleport around, and look for when he zips towards you. Right when he does, sidestep him. He'll usually chase you trying to get the knife (unless vagabond, either way you now have him in a tight space). Turn on your flashlight and start looking for that shadow. HAVE A LACE. If a bond, work on getting him trapped. If lion, he's probably trapped already if you sidestepped correctly.

4. Speaking of flashlights, use them. If they're invisible, their shadows will still show up. Easy way to find them. (if you cannot see vagas with your flashlight, make sure that you have the "shadow details" option in your settings set to HIGH. thanks cyber)

5. Funnel them, kinda goes hand in hand with baiting. If there's a long tunnel you can draw a vaga into, even if you don't have a lace, you'll know when and where to shoot. Get a hit on him, and follow his blood trail. Consider using eye ra for this, as not only can you evade their attacks but if you hit them, they'll be visible for a bit, and easy targets. Combine this with a lace and you're golden, but still effective without.

6. Caught in the open? You're gonna need some help, even with a lace. I like to be undead in these situations though, speedy and low grav. Keep this in mind, with a vaga's teleport range they'll usually end up in corners. With a bond especially, you can see in that split second between teleports where they'll be going roughly. Head at them, keep the pressure on them. Ideally you have a lace and you're undead. They'll see you coming, know they're about to be stuck, pop out and try to get a shot on you. As soon as they pop out, jump and keep going towards them, shoot the fuck out of them. Make them panic. They'll probably miss. If not, tough luck. It happens. But if they miss, they'll try to tele away, jumping while they do. Follow them, shoot them til they're dead, you're out of bullets, or til they get a tele off and if they do get that tele off, follow that blood trail and start charging again. Not as effective against a vagalion but due to the fact that they have to get right on you to kill you, they're not quite as effective in these situations especially if you're a speedy race. This is why undead is a great counter to vagas that most people don't use, and soon they'll be even more powerful with updates.

7. Piss them the fuck off. Works best on the objective team, but be some race like santa or dragonfly, especially santa. Fly around super fast, they can't touch you unless you get yourself stuck on a texture. Use that speed to, say, plant a bomb, then just fly around the site. A vaga can't kill you without being a lucky fuck, and he can't defuse if you're being vigilant. Ask cyber, he hates santas.

8. Wards. With shadow hunter or with strider, these aren't 100% effective with anti-wards, but can be used until the vaga wises up.

9. Humans, spidey, xonvert, and others have a bash effect. Land a bash on a vaga, unload on them, quick kill or at least deal a lot of damage. Pretty simple but also effective.



Know the map you're on, learn how vagas operate on them, and find areas where you can limit your exposure to them. Learn to bait and funnel them, all of these things take practice but it's not impossible. I rarely have problems with vagas extending outside the first couple rounds, and I'm no god, just gotta be smart about what you do. Also if a vaga's getting to you before you leave spawn, he's a douche. Not all vaga players are douches. It's also a poorly designed map as far as wcs goes (westwood I think is terrible for this reason), but you can still combat them with speed or with wards.

Sorry pals. Had to be done, I'm tired of typing this stuff out over and over in other threads.

[acolyte_to_jippity]

The purpose of this post is not to qq about vagas, it's to show you why you shouldn't be qqing about vagas. The methods described below are honed through playing against spasm, shady, wolf, cyber, and other strong vagas.

1. Lace. Get one. Can't afford one? Change to a race that has free weapons (archmage, hell hunter, magician, dragonfly, jack) and spend your money on a lace. Or switch to a race that has a chance to have a free lace (athena, shadow of the void, warden). Also with the shopmenu price balance currently enabled, laces can get as cheap as around $1200 bucks if i remember, so GET ONE. It's the best way to deal with vagas but only if you use it properly. See below for details.

2. If the vaga's raping your team, stay away from wide open areas. This applies mostly to bond than lion, but their long range mobility in either case is their biggest weapon. Whether it's a bond sniping you from afar or a lion teleporting from across the map to backstab you...stay in enclosed areas. Combine this with a lace and you have a good chance of trapping and thereby neutralizing the vaga. Keep in mind vagabonds are efficient in long-range sniping AND in-your-face knifing, whereas vagalions can only knife.

3. Bait them. I love to do this with a speedy race like undead, stand at the opening to a tight area if you know a vaga is near you. Watch him teleport around, and look for when he zips towards you. Right when he does, sidestep him. He'll usually chase you trying to get the knife (unless vagabond, either way you now have him in a tight space). Turn on your flashlight and start looking for that shadow. HAVE A LACE. If a bond, work on getting him trapped. If lion, he's probably trapped already if you sidestepped correctly.

4. Speaking of flashlights, use them. If they're invisible, their shadows will still show up. Easy way to find them.

5. Funnel them, kinda goes hand in hand with baiting. If there's a long tunnel you can draw a vaga into, even if you don't have a lace, you'll know when and where to shoot. Get a hit on him, and follow his blood trail. Consider using eye ra for this, as not only can you evade their attacks but if you hit them, they'll be visible for a bit, and easy targets. Combine this with a lace and you're golden, but still effective without.

6. Caught in the open? You're gonna need some help, even with a lace. I like to be undead in these situations though, speedy and low grav. Keep this in mind, with a vaga's teleport range they'll usually end up in corners. With a bond especially, you can see in that split second between teleports where they'll be going roughly. Head at them, keep the pressure on them. Ideally you have a lace and you're undead. They'll see you coming, know they're about to be stuck, pop out and try to get a shot on you. As soon as they pop out, jump and keep going towards them, shoot the fuck out of them. Make them panic. They'll probably miss. If not, tough luck. It happens. But if they miss, they'll try to tele away, jumping while they do. Follow them, shoot them til they're dead, you're out of bullets, or til they get a tele off and if they do get that tele off, follow that blood trail and start charging again. Not as effective against a vagalion but due to the fact that they have to get right on you to kill you, they're not quite as effective in these situations especially if you're a speedy race. This is why undead is a great counter to vagas that most people don't use, and soon they'll be even more powerful with updates.

7. Piss them the fuck off. Works best on the objective team, but be some race like santa or dragonfly, especially santa. Fly around super fast, they can't touch you unless you get yourself stuck on a texture. Use that speed to, say, plant a bomb, then just fly around the site. A vaga can't kill you without being a lucky fuck, and he can't defuse if you're being vigilant. Ask cyber, he hates santas.

8. Wards. With shadow hunter or with strider, these aren't 100% effective with anti-wards, but can be used until the vaga wises up.

9. Humans, spidey, xonvert, and others have a bash effect. Land a bash on a vaga, unload on them, quick kill or at least deal a lot of damage. Pretty simple but also effective.



Know the map you're on, learn how vagas operate on them, and find areas where you can limit your exposure to them. Learn to bait and funnel them, all of these things take practice but it's not impossible. I rarely have problems with vagas extending outside the first couple rounds, and I'm no god, just gotta be smart about what you do. Also if a vaga's getting to you before you leave spawn, he's a douche. Not all vaga players are douches. It's also a poorly designed map as far as wcs goes (westwood I think is terrible for this reason), but you can still combat them with speed or with wards.

Sorry pals. Had to be done, I'm tired of typing this stuff out over and over in other threads.


hmmm, maybe i should add this to the FAQ.

[Assassin]

Agreed

[Erdenay]

Question, Brett: So are molecules douches for using their shield, nebulas for using their invisibility or humans for their mobility and bash?

Vagas, just like any other races, are supposed to use any means at their disposal to help out their team and rushing is one of the best ways to distract enemies, slow them down or make them panic and force them to play stupid.

[brett friggin favre]

Question, Brett: So are molecules douches for using their shield, nebulas for using their invisibility or humans for their mobility and bash?

Vagas, just like any other races, are supposed to use any means at their disposal to help out their team and rushing is one of the best ways to distract enemies, slow them down or make them panic and force them to play stupid.

never said that, but imo vagas can take advantage of the shortcomings of map design on a map like westwood to kill people before they can move 20 feet. not trying to make a case that it shouldn't be legal, but it is douchey in my eyes.

[Erdenay]

never said that, but imo vagas can take advantage of the shortcomings of map design on a map like westwood to kill people before they can move 20 feet. not trying to make a case that it shouldn't be legal, but it is douchey in my eyes.

If we are to naming vaga rushing douchey, then most of the things could easily fit into that category.The same way you could argue that humans hiding in dark spots or in big maps are douchey because they are taking advantage of shortcomings of the map (humans in fisheyes, most of the assault versions and any bigger maps that you can hide well in many spots, especially if there are open spaces), hellhunters abusing people in dust2, cbble and some others, spiderfags coming to spawn within 3-5 seconds since round start, Shadow hunters warding Militia or parkhouse (or any such place where people would have a rough timing countering them), etc. If you are new and you don't know how to deal with them, all of these things can be douchey. Almost every single race have their moments when they can advantage of shortcomings of either the map designs, other player styles or their races - I see this as a natural progression in the WCS.

The best bet is to learn the maps, the people and the races - and then to learn to counter them. You don't even need too much skill for that - as long as you can use your brain (or play human).

[Assassin]

If we are to naming vaga rushing douchey, then most of the things could easily fit into that category.The same way you could argue that humans hiding in dark spots or in big maps are douchey because they are taking advantage of shortcomings of the map (humans in fisheyes, most of the assault versions and any bigger maps that you can hide well in many spots, especially if there are open spaces), hellhunters abusing people in dust2, cbble and some others, spiderfags coming to spawn within 3-5 seconds since round start, Shadow hunters warding Militia or parkhouse (or any such place where people would have a rough timing countering them), etc. If you are new and you don't know how to deal with them, all of these things can be douchey. Almost every single race have their moments when they can advantage of shortcomings of either the map designs, other player styles or their races - I see this as a natural progression in the WCS.

The best bet is to learn the maps, the people and the races - and then to learn to counter them. You don't even need too much skill for that - as long as you can use your brain (or play human).
While I do agree with what you have said mostly the most complained about races are the vagas. Hands down. So putting something up like this was just a matter of time.

[brett friggin favre]

If we are to naming vaga rushing douchey, then most of the things could easily fit into that category.The same way you could argue that humans hiding in dark spots or in big maps are douchey because they are taking advantage of shortcomings of the map (humans in fisheyes, most of the assault versions and any bigger maps that you can hide well in many spots, especially if there are open spaces), hellhunters abusing people in dust2, cbble and some others, spiderfags coming to spawn within 3-5 seconds since round start, Shadow hunters warding Militia or parkhouse (or any such place where people would have a rough timing countering them), etc. If you are new and you don't know how to deal with them, all of these things can be douchey. Almost every single race have their moments when they can advantage of shortcomings of either the map designs, other player styles or their races - I see this as a natural progression in the WCS.

The best bet is to learn the maps, the people and the races - and then to learn to counter them. You don't even need too much skill for that - as long as you can use your brain (or play human).

i agree with you, however those examples given have an element of choice. if you choose to walk somewhere and there's a human in a dark corner, that's partly on you. also if you didn't check it, that's on you. but a vaga killing you 3 seconds into the round before you can make a choice or get any cover is particularly douchey.

[Assassin]

I wonder how much qq would happen if they turned the mole timer to like 1 second or 2. (yes including the races...)

[Erdenay]

While I do agree with what you have said mostly the most complained about races are the vagas. Hands down. So putting something up like this was just a matter of time.

Oh, I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. This is a great guide - easy to read and to understand along with high usefulness. Even Cyber or thecat could do it. My argument was about a very specific part of the guide that I do not agree with.


i agree with you, however those examples given have an element of choice. if you choose to walk somewhere and there's a human in a dark corner, that's partly on you. also if you didn't check it, that's on you. but a vaga killing you 3 seconds into the round before you can make a choice or get any cover is particularly douchey.

Not exactly - at least not the way you cover it. All decisions have an element of a choice (or at least an illusion of choice) and this is true for both mine and your examples. Correct, if you choose to go anywhere in the map and if you get shot by a skywalker that you couldn't have seen or by a human that is pretty much invisible, it's by choice. If you get rushed by spiderfag in the 1st 3 seconds of the map, you have a choice to either face it, try to run away or hide. Same is true for vagas. There's very few maps where vagas can rush as well as spiders, but since you've used Westwood as an example, I'll respond to that particular example:

Both T's and CT's have houses where they can hide (or they can hide behind buildings) - furthermore, they can play races such as human, undead, etc. (races that have high mobility and can get away from spawn very fast). If you buy your things too long and if you complete for too long and you get shot while you're still shopping - it is also partly your fault as you had a choice to buy things quick and disappear - yet for some reason you chose not to (this may be an unconscious decision). Vaga rush is pretty much as survivable as any other - and your guide should help a lot for newer players. However, calling vaga rush douchey pretty much means that using any advantages that you may get that may not have completely been intended or are very powerful means you are a douche.

[Grits]

Oh, I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. This is a great guide - easy to read and to understand along with high usefulness. Even Cyber or thecat could do it. My argument was about a very specific part of the guide that I do not agree with.



Not exactly - at least not the way you cover it. All decisions have an element of a choice (or at least an illusion of choice) and this is true for both mine and your examples. Correct, if you choose to go anywhere in the map and if you get shot by a skywalker that you couldn't have seen or by a human that is pretty much invisible, it's by choice. If you get rushed by spiderfag in the 1st 3 seconds of the map, you have a choice to either face it, try to run away or hide. Same is true for vagas. There's very few maps where vagas can rush as well as spiders, but since you've used Westwood as an example, I'll respond to that particular example:

Both T's and CT's have houses where they can hide (or they can hide behind buildings) - furthermore, they can play races such as human, undead, etc. (races that have high mobility and can get away from spawn very fast). If you buy your things too long and if you complete for too long and you get shot while you're still shopping - it is also partly your fault as you had a choice to buy things quick and disappear - yet for some reason you chose not to (this may be an unconscious decision). Vaga rush is pretty much as survivable as any other - and your guide should help a lot for newer players. However, calling vaga rush douchey pretty much means that using any advantages that you may get that may not have completely been intended or are very powerful means you are a douche.

Good post. All races are counterable. If you're unable to counter someone, its not the race, they're just simply better than you and would likely own you in standard CSS as well. Thats my two cents... People who whine about vaga, human, jack, molecule, etc would find something else to whine about if those races were nerfed.

[Chef C Green]

make sure that you have the "shadow details" option in your settings set to HIGH. thanks cyber)

After reading this, I went to options to make sure this was set right. Turns out I've been playing with shadows on LOW since I can remember... this would explain a lot haha. Another thing to add to this might be flashlight sweeping and using the mini-map. Less efficient, but can also let you see vagas that are much further away if you hit them with the beam. Assuming this holds true since last time I was on >.<

[jwtemp]

Having played positively zero WCS, reading these threads is like being on LSD.