Auto-Balance

[Axiom Guard]

It seems that one of the biggest problems on the WCS servers is the lack of a good auto-balance program. Time and time again, one team just completely dominates the other. The winning team is getting all the money, so the cycle just becomes stronger. The solution seems so easy with an auto-balance system that moves the top player to the other team. I don't know what it is like in the other servers here, but in WCS the problem is giant; and scores such as 10-1 are common.

Balanced teams would make it more fun for everyone. Right now, it's very often 1-sided.

[acolyte_to_jippity]

It seems that one of the biggest problems on the WCS servers is the lack of a good auto-balance program. Time and time again, one team just completely dominates the other. The winning team is getting all the money, so the cycle just becomes stronger. The solution seems so easy with an auto-balance system that moves the top player to the other team. I don't know what it is like in the other servers here, but in WCS the problem is giant; and scores such as 10-1 are common.

Balanced teams would make it more fun for everyone. Right now, it's very often 1-sided.

has it occured to the losing team to try changing races around? instead of just being steamrolled and taking it like bitches, try making an effort to not get rolled, by changing races and countering the really strong enemies. hint: shadow hunters are a good idea

this idea has been brought up MULTIPLE times in the past. zero is currently working on something that might help, but the problem is not as large as so many people tend to make it.

[Axiom Guard]

has it occured to the losing team to try changing races around? instead of just being steamrolled and taking it like bitches, try making an effort to not get rolled, by changing races and countering the really strong enemies. hint: shadow hunters are a good idea

this idea has been brought up MULTIPLE times in the past. zero is currently working on something that might help, but the problem is not as large as so many people tend to make it.

Perhaps it has occured to losing teams to do this. But the reality is that time and again the scores are 10-1, 19-4, etc. The scores don't lie. This happens all the time, every single day. And if there was an auto-balance system in place, it would happen less.

[Locust]

There is a system that decreases the prices on the shopmenu items when your team is getting dominated. It's been implemented for awhile now. Buying items for super cheap can really help turn it around for your team if you're smart about it

[Axiom Guard]

Thanks for that. This does go a long way toward balance. However, I'm still seeing large mismatches. Is there a way to look at the server and see what the game scores were for maps over the day?

[LunaTick]

has it occured to the losing team to try changing races around? instead of just being steamrolled and taking it like bitches, try making an effort to not get rolled, by changing races and countering the really strong enemies. hint: shadow hunters are a good idea

this idea has been brought up MULTIPLE times in the past. zero is currently working on something that might help, but the problem is not as large as so many people tend to make it.

You definitely are oversimplifying the problem.

The team stacks being made are not of leveled players, but talented players- or just people that know how to (ab)use a higher end race.

I'd like to suggest to ZERO to allow the community to observe the balance intended. With public feedback, I think the issue could be solved quicker.
It's not just a matter of switching races. Some players do need to be pitted against each other.

[acolyte_to_jippity]

You definitely are oversimplifying the problem.

The team stacks being made are not of leveled players, but talented players- or just people that know how to (ab)use a higher end race.

I'd like to suggest to ZERO to allow the community to observe the balance intended. With public feedback, I think the issue could be solved quicker.
It's not just a matter of switching races. Some players do need to be pitted against each other.

i oversimplify nothing. this has been brought up in the past, and shot down because it's not a good idea. i've played since the old WCS server, where the threat of an EVA entering was enough to make even the most manly of maynards shit themselves. Always, without fail, people adapted their playstyles to counter their opponents. Wolf comes in with his vagalion? swap to shadow hunter! flame preds and xonverts running circles around you? swap to night elf, root and killt heir ass!

normally in CS:S, if teamstacking occurs, the losing team is fucked. they can't spontaneously become better, all they can do is lay down and spread 'em. However, WCS adds another dynamic, another scale, another variable. WCS lets you change something OTHER than your skill, which can help to make up for deficiencies in the former category.

[What]

Yes dear god look through past posts this has been brought up and addressed .

[LunaTick]

normally in CS:S, if teamstacking occurs, the losing team is fucked. they can't spontaneously become better, all they can do is lay down and spread 'em.
Aye, hence team-balancing devices.


However, WCS adds another dynamic, another scale, another variable. WCS lets you change something OTHER than your skill, which can help to make up for deficiencies in the former category.
Sweet. Still, let us look at one who has changed their race.
Oh! Look! Now they're only doing slightly less worse! How swell!

You'll notice I've emphasized "can" in your quote. Which means there is, and by is I mean quite definitely, the chance that changing your race will do shit all because the stacking people are talking about is not race stacking but player stacking.

It's daft to think that races/abilities/items will suddenly turn the tide of battle when you have a demoralized team against a stoic, unyielding, already-established team of top-end players. It's not hard, I shouldn't think, to say, "Oh, here are the top two/four players; maybe I should move one/two of them to the opposing team for one/two of the lower two/four players? Now let us see how the games run."

[maynard]

i oversimplify nothing

This.

If you're on the losing team... simply do better. You have all the tools available. If you start using playerinfo, finding out what the other team is and work 2 counter them you can level things out... Christ we even have super cheap shop menu items now for the losing team... qq'ing about un balanced teams is just a joke now lol. if you can't with all the races, and items and items at a discount now do half decent... well you have no one but yourself 2 blame.

some basic forms of stacking will always occur when someone like that prick spasm joins or other skilled players... but if you're against skilled players, try learning from them and make yourself better... once again... all the tools are there and at some point if people still can't prevail or even hold your own it really comes down 2 being a personal problem more than anything.


Can't wait till Eva comes out lol... the QQ'ing will be quite funny. The server is simple now... wait till you have one of those running around the map.

[Axiom Guard]

If you're on the losing team... simply do better. You have all the tools available. If you start using playerinfo, finding out what the other team is and work 2 counter them you can level things out... Christ we even have super cheap shop menu items now for the losing team... qq'ing about un balanced teams is just a joke now lol. if you can't with all the races, and items and items at a discount now do half decent... well you have no one but yourself 2 blame.

some basic forms of stacking will always occur when someone like that prick spasm joins or other skilled players... but if you're against skilled players, try learning from them and make yourself better... once again... all the tools are there and at some point if people still can't prevail or even hold your own it really comes down 2 being a personal problem more than anything.

It is not as simple as that. Sometimes the teams are screwed up. If there was an auto-balance system in place, then it would not be a problem.
Personally, I hate being shifted from one team to the other. I always enjoy going for the hostages, so I wouldn't like being forced to the opposite team.
But I would gladly accept that since it would mean that one team of selfish assholes wouldn't continue dominating the map and enjoying an easy victory. When that happens, only 1 team is happy. Half the server therefore is not.

It would be awesome if players recognized this and joined the losing team for a more balanced game, but they don't. So it ends up being that you just have to wait until it's your turn to be on the winning team and then because of the huge imbalance, you don't want to change teams to be nice either. It's just a bad cycle of being an asshole. That's not good. How is that good?

[acolyte_to_jippity]

It is not as simple as that. Sometimes the teams are screwed up. If there was an auto-balance system in place, then it would not be a problem.
Personally, I hate being shifted from one team to the other. I always enjoy going for the hostages, so I wouldn't like being forced to the opposite team.
But I would gladly accept that since it would mean that one team of selfish assholes wouldn't continue dominating the map and enjoying an easy victory. When that happens, only 1 team is happy. Half the server therefore is not.

It would be awesome if players recognized this and joined the losing team for a more balanced game, but they don't. So it ends up being that you just have to wait until it's your turn to be on the winning team and then because of the huge imbalance, you don't want to change teams to be nice either. It's just a bad cycle of being an asshole. That's not good. How is that good?

name some of these selfish assholes, please.

[Axiom Guard]

name some of these selfish assholes, please.

No. That's not how a respectable person would operate and that's not how I will operate. Suffice to say that it is a constant, daily, sometimes hourly occurance.

[acolyte_to_jippity]

No. That's not how a respectable person would operate and that's not how I will operate. Suffice to say that it is a constant, daily, sometimes hourly occurance.

so, you're saying that some of our regulars are very good, and should be forced to adjust their methods of play to make it more fair to those other players that are NOT as good?


if you're running a race, and one person is much faster, do you tell him he has to slow down, or take an alernate route? NO! you fucking work hard to improve yourself!! and possibly sick the drug testers on the other guy, BUT THAT"S BESIDE THE POINT

[Axiom Guard]

so, you're saying that some of our regulars are very good, and should be forced to adjust their methods of play to make it more fair to those other players that are NOT as good?

if you're running a race, and one person is much faster, do you tell him he has to slow down, or take an alernate route? NO! you fucking work hard to improve yourself!! and possibly sick the drug testers on the other guy, BUT THAT"S BESIDE THE POINT

Some regulars are very good. But sometimes it's just that very good players end up on the same team and then dominate the server utterly and completely. That's not good. Perhaps slightly funny to the winning team when it's 20-3, not so much when you're on the team with 3. ANd it happens every single day. I've been on both sides. I'm usually the top or very close to the top even when I'm on the losing team. There is *NOTHING ELSE* that I can do. I've done all that I can. Our team simply just lacks enough skilled players. I can't carry them all.


When I would go to the gym or the park to play some B-ball and the teams were all askew, the *MEN* there (because boys don't seem to care) would just even it out among themselves. The older and more mature the crowd, the faster and more even the game became. That's because in almost all sports and games, the most fun that is ever had is from the closest games where either team could win, and you don't know who that will be until the end. When it's 20-3, it's really not as much fun even for the winning team as 20-19 would be when the Hoots and Hollars and Cheers and Roars of an entire server enjoying themselves fully are at full effect.

[Wolfenstinger]

When I would go to the gym or the park to play some B-ball and the teams were all askew, the *MEN* there (because boys don't seem to care) would just even it out among themselves. The older and more mature the crowd, the faster and more even the game became. That's because in almost all sports and games, the most fun that is ever had is from the closest games where either team could win, and you don't know who that will be until the end. When it's 20-3, it's really not as much fun even for the winning team as 20-19 would be when the Hoots and Hollars and Cheers and Roars of an entire server enjoying themselves fully are at full effect.

WCS is apparently a sport now.

[LunaTick]

He didn't start the analogy, Wolf.

It shouldn't be so insane to suggest not culturing elitism.
I mean, you cannot legitimately claim that IBIS is not elitist. Y'fuckin' are.
I've come to terms with that; however I will still argue this point as best I can against the majority.

Yes, acolyte, I think that the better players (when they are all on the same team) should alter their methods and balance the teams out.
When you have a team of new players, or less skilled players, it is slightly ridiculous to just say, "lol they need to change their race to win".
I can change my race, but by that time the vagabonds and lions already have their laces, so my snares don't work. My laces don't always help me gain an advantage over the frozen vagas.
It's not so simple as "buy items and change races". Sometimes the teams need to be balanced.

[jwtemp]

This entire thread is basically 'the other team is too good, put some of those good players on my team.'

This is utterly and completely fucking ridiculous and it's never going to happen. It literally can't - there's no sure-fire way to balance 'player skill.' Buck up, re-read Maynard's post and let this thread die already.

[Wolfenstinger]

Yes, acolyte, I think that the better players (when they are all on the same team) should alter their methods and balance the teams out.
When you have a team of new players, or less skilled players, it is slightly ridiculous to just say, "lol they need to change their race to win".
I can change my race, but by that time the vagabonds and lions already have their laces, so my snares don't work. My laces don't always help me gain an advantage over the frozen vagas.
It's not so simple as "buy items and change races". Sometimes the teams need to be balanced.

Give you a tip when you're playing against me when I play vagalion - if I see you go Night Elf, Blood Mage, Chameleon (sometimes) or Athena, expect me to already have my lace or playing slightly further back from you. I'd rather be stuck by a lace than get rooted or lit on fire. The only other time i'll get a lace is when I can't kill the crypt lord because hes hiding in god knows where and I'm running low on time (time = my hp vs his locust). There's a hell of a good reason why I'm usually playing w/o any shopmenu items compared to the mass majority.

[LunaTick]

It is actually quite possible to make it a fairer fight.
It's not a question of possibility- it's a question of willing.

Until there is another argument other than, "I like being elitist, though," I'm afraid I cannot let this notion die.
Again, I go back to the suggestion of full disclosure: let the worried know what this balancing effort is.

I understand that this effort is going to be like this: :banghead:
But after a while maybe you'll understand the logic behind it.
Elitism is great for a few. But as a pub server, one would think that fair games would be a sort of focus.

e.
Aye, that's fair enough, Wolf. Though that, "hell of a good reason" from your post eludes me.
And it don't change the fact that my lace ain't doin' the work I want it to- but I could easily find my own blame in that.

[jwtemp]

You're ignoring the argument entirely. You're now asking people to balance the teams themselves, and if they don't do what you're asking, it's because they're 'elitist.' This is an invalid argument, plain and simple. It has nothing to do with being elitist. It has to do with no one really caring about a very vocal minority whining, bitching and moaning all day about getting wrecked because they're not good enough to win.

Read that again. No one except a very vocal minority cares about 'team stacking' and 'team stacking' isn't even what's really going on, it's a simple matter of one team playing better, by skill or understanding of game mechanics, than the other.

If you are one of two people who are constantly complaining on this forum about 'elitism' and 'team stacking,' which do you think is the easier solution - you finding a way to join the winning team, so we don't have to listen to you complain anymore and you won't have a reason to complain since now you'll be 'elite' too, or everyone in the entire WCS server and IBIS community changing their playstyle, playing on teams opposite from their friends and bending their free time they use to enjoy WCS to your will?

That's a simple matter of economics. I'm pretty sure you know the answer and I'm pretty sure Maynard already gave it to you, but you don't seem willing to acquiesce on the issue so I'll just say this.

QKdnGL-nH8E

[LunaTick]

What argument have I ignored and how?

My "majority" refers to those that are actually on the forum and arguing back.
By far the roles of majority and minority are switched on the server- except maybe in the low traffic times.
And damn right it's a loud argument. It's ridiculous how y'all belittle it.

Why are only the extremely able entitled to enjoyment of the server?
There is no bending or changing of playstyle- only a changing of team.

Fuck- if it is so damn evil to switch teams to make a fair fight, force auto-assign.
Then no one can legitimately bitch about team stacking.

As it is, though, team stacking is what's going on. So many times the teams are even in number, but the wins are skewed.
Let's use 18 to 6 as an example. Someone joins. Now this someone is a player that just might be able to give an edge to the team with only six wins.
What does this newcomer do? Chooses to join the team that is already dominating. Why is this okay?
Cultured Elitism. And this does happen. It happens often, even.

A program that balances out the players with extreme scores with players of poorer scores is not a bad idea.
And it's not impossible, either. As to the difficulty, I cannot say. But it is not impossible. It goes back to willing.
Do people even care about everyone having fun? Do you earnestly think that it's only a minority that is not having any entertainment?

[jwtemp]

Cyber, can you hop in this thread right quick and post that Jackie Chan picture again please? Then you can go ahead and close this thread. Thanks!

[acolyte_to_jippity]

Fuck- if it is so damn evil to switch teams to make a fair fight, force auto-assign.
Then no one can legitimately bitch about team stacking.


that has come up on here before. and been refused.

[Passarelli]

Almost always when this happens (that I see anyway) someone from the winning team will switch or ask to switch to the losing side. Often times no one from the losing team moves to spec to facilitate the move and if an admin isn't on, the losing team is SOL. The cheaper items has also helped with balance, as the winning team will usually go 20-4 then by the end of the match the score will be 24-10 or 20-15.

The worst is when it is one sided and someone that was carrying the winning team switches and gets the cheap items >.<

Overall, I like that functionality though. People should just play Magician when their items get cheap. Nothin like 3 full item birds spawning every round :smirk:

Figured I'd just post this here as well, as this started the 'Bye' thread.

[Xepp]

Imo the only bad thing about this server is the lack of a proper auto balance. I have been playing here for about 1,5 month and I have seen this problem almost every time I play. I remember a specific game at de_dust with 3 well known regulars with maxed races on CT and me with a couple of maxed races and 2 people with tot lvl of maybe 20 in T. We stood no chance.. at all.. it was like 20-0. We didn't have a single kill. They rushed us and killed us within 15s _every round_.. They where lion, spidey and jack and I tried everything.. I bought lace every time but it didn't help. Sure, if I stuck the lion I got killed the second after that by any of the other. I tried to reason with them like "Can't you go pistols only or something cause we don't stand a chance?". Sure, there are a couple of regular good guys that actually changes team if they dominate to much but those are easily counted in one hand. I can't understand whats the fun in killing enemies that easy 20 times in a row... isn't an even fight more fun? As someone mentioned in this tread.. typical behavior of younger people.

An auto balance feature that would move the top player in the dominating team instead of the lowest (as is done today) would greatly increase the playing experience and attract new players to the server. This wouldn't be a hard function to implement since this basically already exist today.

The fairest way would be to implement this for a month or two, then have a poll with people evaluating this. I would be very surprised if the general public didn't want this.
My 2 cents

[Erdenay]

Imo the only bad thing about this server is the lack of a proper auto balance. I have been playing here for about 1,5 month and I have seen this problem almost every time I play. I remember a specific game at de_dust with 3 well known regulars with maxed races on CT and me with a couple of maxed races and 2 people with tot lvl of maybe 20 in T. We stood no chance.. at all.. it was like 20-0. We didn't have a single kill. They rushed us and killed us within 15s _every round_.. They where lion, spidey and jack and I tried everything.. I bought lace every time but it didn't help. Sure, if I stuck the lion I got killed the second after that by any of the other. I tried to reason with them like "Can't you go pistols only or something cause we don't stand a chance?". Sure, there are a couple of regular good guys that actually changes team if they dominate to much but those are easily counted in one hand. I can't understand whats the fun in killing enemies that easy 20 times in a row... isn't an even fight more fun? As someone mentioned in this tread.. typical behavior of younger people.

An auto balance feature that would move the top player in the dominating team instead of the lowest (as is done today) would greatly increase the playing experience and attract new players to the server. This wouldn't be a hard function to implement since this basically already exist today.

The fairest way would be to implement this for a month or two, then have a poll with people evaluating this. I would be very surprised if the general public didn't want this.
My 2 cents

First of all, it may be just me, but I prefer to call people out when something like that happens. Most of the community in IBIS is actually not like that and if you do something like that, they may be shamed, ridiculed and hopefully will change. The setup that you've mentioned is very unfair and I'd say the vast majority of regulars would be willing to compromise of sorts.

As far as auto-balance goes, last I've heard, Zero's still working on it and it will be released when it's done. This has been brought up a lot of times in the past and IBIS not very fast to embrace changes - I've learnt it the hard way. Basically, respect the community, the hierarchy and the regulars - and you'll get the same thing directed back at you (unless you're a dirty mexicano like Cyber or a newly discovered redneck such as Brett).