summoning off the map

[brett friggin favre]

having an issue in vegas currently where it's possible to summon a player outside of the map area. in one particular instance i was summoned to this area and the bomb was planted. i had no way of going back onto the map to complete the objective. i feel like since this manipulates the game so that the objective is not completable, it shouldn't be legal, but wanted to get a discussion going to confirm. can post a demo if neeed.

[acolyte_to_jippity]

remember that it is 100% legal to summon someone such that if they move slightly, they die/disappear. example being "into" the water on de_port. it's possible (and allowed) to stand such that moving forward slightly after being summoned will cause the player to die, as it is technically the summoned's fault he ran off the edge.

a demo would be nice, however, as this does sound different from the normal situation.

[Chef C Green]

remember that it is 100% legal to summon someone such that if they move slightly, they die/disappear.

True, but you're not exactly dying here, so much as being trapped. It offers another way to manipulate players, such that a player could be trapped out of the map from the first summon. Once all other members have died, the bomb can be planted leisurely without threat of being defused, and the player unable to kill himself for with-holding exp from the opposing team. The irony is that the summoner is also with-holding the ability to either defuse or try to fight his way to defuse.

[What]

Wouldn't it be the same as if you summoned in a vent? In essence you are summoning a player where they will be stuck, which I thought was a against the rules for Eye Ra.

[acolyte_to_jippity]

Wouldn't it be the same as if you summoned in a vent? In essence you are summoning a player where they will be stuck, which I thought was a against the rules for Eye Ra.

you can't summon in vents. zero got rid of that ability a LONG time ago. the summoning fails if the player is unable to move a single pixel in at least 1 random direction.

[brett friggin favre]

posting the demo, watch i2o4, he tries it several times, successfully at 39000 and 45000

[CYBER]

honestly ? I'm with a meh on this one.
It's really a situational scenario. TOO situational, to the point of being quite the achievement.
Not only do you need to be on THAT map, but you have to be on that team, at that position, summoning the last guy, who conveniently doesn't have a lace or cannot teleport or fly etc, while the objective is yet to be finished...

Personally? I see this as if u're a vaga, and the enemies got you stuck with a lace. Enemies can simply keep u stuck and go do the objective.
You cannot teleport out to stop them. So they ARE technically blocking you from finishing the objective because u're stuck when they could have simply killed u . The only reason they don't is to get more moolah from the bomb or hosties.
And u might argue that getting stuck with a lace is a game mechanic, but so is summoning people off edges, regardless of the map.

The fact that you can block this by having a lace should be sufficient, if it happened once? it's like those fucking idiots who use hell hunter and go off map with the bomb... and die there... shit happens, tough luck, you counter it or learn from it.
What would happen on crackhouse then if someone summoned u outside the map? or if u were shooting someone and they fell into the building cracks


I'll vote allowed for now, due to rareness of this "exploit".

[ZERO]

From what I can see this is the same as getting a player stuck in that they are stuck outside of the map which is something that is obviously not intnded.

[brett friggin favre]

From what I can see this is the same as getting a player stuck in that they are stuck outside of the map which is something that is obviously not intnded.

this is how i was interpreting it. not to mention...idk if he can get back into the map, so that's also not doing his objective.

[CYBER]

From what I can see this is the same as getting a player stuck in that they are stuck outside of the map which is something that is obviously not intnded.last i checked zero, u are able to summon people to their death. Dying = not able to complete objective, so would surviving the fall be considered bad? Not to mention that they would be able to kill that summoned guy that fell outside if needed, just follow him. Whether he died from the summon fall or survived, it should be game over for him nway.... Thats my opinion i guess

[maynard]

people should not be summoned off the map. falling 2 your death is situational and can sometimes be overcome. being summoned 2 be stuck outside the map should not happen or be tolerated.

[CYBER]

people should not be summoned off the map. falling 2 your death is situational and can sometimes be overcome. being summoned 2 be stuck outside the map should not happen or be tolerated.

so if i were to stand on the edge of crackhouse building, facing the back of the map, and summon someone off that cliff IN THE INTENTION OF KILLING THEM, and then that piece of shit happened to survive it somehow.... are u telling me that i'd be breaking a rule? the mere reason why i'd wanna summon behind the building is because it's a higher fall, and almost guarantees 90% instant death for non levitation/fly/tele races.

just curious in case someone asked me.

[acolyte_to_jippity]

so if i were to stand on the edge of crackhouse building, facing the back of the map, and summon someone off that cliff IN THE INTENTION OF KILLING THEM, and then that piece of shit happened to survive it somehow.... are u telling me that i'd be breaking a rule? the mere reason why i'd wanna summon behind the building is because it's a higher fall, and almost guarantees 90% instant death for non levitation/fly/tele races.

just curious in case someone asked me.

note, when they appear, they are NOT in the void. they appear on solid ground, and WALK off the edge. that is why it's allowed to "summon people to their death" in such a manner. if, however, there was an area that you could crouch under, but which would immediately kill anything that is not crouched (i'm imagining buzz saws for example), you couldn't summon under them, and the summoned would have zero chance to not die.

[brett friggin favre]

note, when they appear, they are NOT in the void. they appear on solid ground, and WALK off the edge. that is why it's allowed to "summon people to their death" in such a manner. if, however, there was an area that you could crouch under, but which would immediately kill anything that is not crouched (i'm imagining buzz saws for example), you couldn't summon under them, and the summoned would have zero chance to not die.

what map are you playing that has buzz saws in it? i wanna play it!

[What]

I think it boils down to, if the intent of the summon is to get a player stuck, its not allowed. If the intent is to kill them, but by chance they survive (ie in port if you survive the summon good chance your stuck on that pipe) then its just shitty luck.

[acolyte_to_jippity]

what map are you playing that has buzz saws in it? i wanna play it!

it was an example. baically, if you summon someone "to their death" on port or the like, they don't immediately die. they need to walk off the edge first. the slightest movement forward might do it, but they still need to make that movement. as opposed to summoning someone in such a way they they will immediately die, like in my (fictional) example of the buzz saw.

[Erdenay]

it was an example. baically, if you summon someone "to their death" on port or the like, they don't immediately die. they need to walk off the edge first. the slightest movement forward might do it, but they still need to make that movement. as opposed to summoning someone in such a way they they will immediately die, like in my (fictional) example of the buzz saw.

This is not STRICTLY true. Eye of Ra with socks can jump over the area, summon and come back leaving the player with no chances of survival.

[Wolfenstinger]

note, when they appear, they are NOT in the void. they appear on solid ground, and WALK off the edge. that is why it's allowed to "summon people to their death" in such a manner. if, however, there was an area that you could crouch under, but which would immediately kill anything that is not crouched (i'm imagining buzz saws for example), you couldn't summon under them, and the summoned would have zero chance to not die.


what map are you playing that has buzz saws in it? i wanna play it!

de_nightmare, it's a 2 for 1 joy ride. But in all seriousness, if players somehow survive from what was suppose to be a "falling death" and are not a flying race + also stuck (say, summoned an undead but all he does is drift down from where he was suppose to "fall and splat"), then everyone will be staring at each other with their angry eyes until the round ends.

[acolyte_to_jippity]

This is not STRICTLY true. Eye of Ra with socks can jump over the area, summon and come back leaving the player with no chances of survival.

hint: that is not allowed then. see how that works?

[CYBER]

hint: that is not allowed then. see how that works?i wouldnt go that far. We DID rule out in the past few years that you ARE allowed to summon people off cliffs.
And many people time the ultimate properly so that it summons exactly as they are jumping over a pit or out towards the open and landig back on a close edge, making the unaware summonee fall to a bigger distance.

And heck i've personally been one of the first people to buy socks as eye rae and summon off cliffs on aztec and dolls etc. i even did that in the scrim and no bitching happened then. It depends on what race the summonee is. And thats not something u can control
And dont forget that many many times the enemy ends up killing YOU before they fall because they're gd, or zip/tele away from falling while u just looked like an idiot...Lets not go as far as completely preventing this SMART combo because of ONE very situational case above...

This has never been an issue before and summoning people to their falling dealth has always been allowed aco, because the player gets no exp from the world kill.

Summoning off edges is PART of game mecanics, now i get what u guys are trying to say aboutthose SPECIFIC glitches outside maps, but not to completely ban the socks-summoning combo because its not an exploit to use a race optimally without breaking the system ya know

[acolyte_to_jippity]

i wouldnt go that far. We DID rule out in the past few years that you ARE allowed to summon people off cliffs.
And many people time the ultimate properly so that it summons exactly as they are jumping over a pit or out towards the open and landig back on a close edge, making the unaware summonee fall to a bigger distance.

And heck i've personally been one of the first people to buy socks as eye rae and summon off cliffs on aztec and dolls etc. i even did that in the scrim and no bitching happened then. It depends on what race the summonee is. And thats not something u can control
And dont forget that many many times the enemy ends up killing YOU before they fall because they're gd, or zip/tele away from falling while u just looked like an idiot...Lets not go as far as completely preventing this SMART combo because of ONE very situational case above...

This has never been an issue before and summoning people to their falling dealth has always been allowed aco, because the player gets no exp from the world kill.

Summoning off edges is PART of game mecanics, now i get what u guys are trying to say aboutthose SPECIFIC glitches outside maps, but not to completely ban the socks-summoning combo because its not an exploit to use a race optimally without breaking the system ya know

http://www.ibisgaming.com/forums/showthread.php/2238-WCS-rules-questions?highlight=summon

[CYBER]

http://www.ibisgaming.com/forums/showthread.php/2238-WCS-rules-questions?highlight=summon
I counter your Maynard (who was only an ADMIN at the time), with a ZERO: a post made more recently than your post.


http://www.ibisgaming.com/forums/showthread.php/2240-WCS-Rules?highlight=summoning
quotes from that OFFICIAL RULES THREAD:


They should be allowed to summon over cliff. The balance is in the fact that they will not gain xp from the opponent killing themselves. Also the chance to stop them is before the power activates. Also think what would happen if they summoned someone that could drop wards. There are many ways to balance out this race stopping them from dropping noobs to their doom is not one of them.


if that's how you want it then it's your call. I just disagree cause you're giving people negative scores when you do that cause it counts as a suicide. but if you want it like that it's not the end of the world, there's few maps you can even do that on, so it doesn't really matter.


Not to mention that RULE #1 in the WCS RULES talks about eye rae glitching you into vents. There's no place where it says that it cannot summon off cliffs.

Your argument might have been valid for 2 days in 2009, but 2 days afterwards, this newer ruling came out. and i follow the most recent ones made by Zero, the owner, over maynard who was admin at that time. (no offence maymay, but we were all non-clanners and ulas at some point...)

But now im sure that clan-status maynard and zero can both come to an understanding here?
personally i don't think summoning to death should be disallowed based on force of habit in the server and no one complaining about it. Fact is, it's one of the best plays to do as eye rae. But hey, that's just my humble opinion.