Huge ass list of balance suggestions

[Brice]

First off not every suggestion is meant to be used together. Several changes will harp on problems with an ability/race and using any one of those would be a decent change to help mitigate the issue. On to the changes.

Server
Unrestrict Awp/Autos or restrict P90 as well.

All races
200-250 HP hard cap

Shopmenu
Mask: Broken, fix or remove.
Boots: Increase bonus speed by 0.1-0.15
Add: Longjump item Cost 3500-4500
Add: Dust of apperance; colors enemy model some color for 3-6 seconds when hit. Should be made to work against bond, lion, rapscallion and any partial invis race

Undead
Vampiric Aura: Remove tracing visual
Vampiric Aura: Decrease leech amount by 15% at max, increase leech chance by 5% at max

Human
Stormwind Cloak: Decrease invis percentage by 10-15% at max level
Bash: Remove visual
Bash: [This one will actually pertain to and be referenced by other skills later on that use the same method of stopping player movement] Remove 100% slow(This is an extremely poor way to handle assuring players are frozen due to how slows affect aim and recoil). Replace with a try/catch similar to lace that will detect if player is using a jetpack like ability or if the player is currently bashed or affected by another movement stopping skill. It will stop the ability for the duration of the bash, freeze them, then unfreeze and enable the skill again.
Shopmenu: Restrict Orb of Frost and Periapt of health.

Orcish Horde
Critical Strike: Remove tracing visual
Critical Strike: Decrease critical strength by 15-25%, increase chance by 5-8% at max levels
Respawn: Decrease god mode time by half

Night Elf
Evasion: Remove tracing visual
Trueshot Aura: Remove tracing visual
Thorns: Remove tracing visual
Entangling Roots: See bash
Entangling Roots: Decrease entangled time by 2-3 seconds at max level; decrease cooldown by 25%
Shopmenu: Restrict Helm of Excellence

Blood Mage
Banish: Rework this totally. Current banish is a concept failure as it alters the location of the crosshair making it 100% luck based kills while under its effects. The old reverse zoom was hugely effective.
Flame Strike: Reduce burn time by half; Decrease cooldown by 30%

Shadow Hunter
Hex: Extremely underpowered. Only current value is attacking molecule through it's ultimate at a very rare chance. Perhaps a 1-5% chance ability to cause enemies to reload their weapon on attack.

Warden
Shadow strike: Double the slow and damage
Vengeance: Add a 5-25% chance to go into a Vengeance frenzy upon respawn gaining 10-30 HP and an addtional 4-12 damage on attack.

Crypt Lord
Locust Swarm: Do not allow use if player cannot gain any HP from use
Locust Swarm: Add a range 1.5 times the size of Orcish Horde chain lighting
Locust Swarm: Change to passive with a 1-5% chance to inflict 10-30 damage and 15-35 armor damage on attack

Archmage
Earthquake: Decrease shake by a magnitude of 2
Weapons of the Archmage: Add a menu asking if you want to receive the weapons when it procs

Flame Predator
Claw Attack: Change from a weapon drop to forcing the player to pull out their knife
Burning Blade: Decrease burn time by 0.5-1 seconds

Molecule
Speed: Decrease by 0.5-0.1 at max level
Evade: Decrease by 5% at max level
Force Field: Make it a clone of Shadow Hunters Voodoo
Force Field: Change to doubling evade for 2-6 seconds remove freeze and 100% slow

Genocide
Regeneration: Change to a gain of 10-24(2 per level) HP per kill and 5% speed per kills.

Spider Man
Spidey Sense: drop max chance to 25% evade
Agility: Max LJ 140-150% drop speed by 10% at max
Web Shooter: See Bash.
Web Shooter: 25% chance at max
Weblines: Add a 2-3 second cooldown. Have a longer cooldown at earlier levels.

Succubus Hunter
DTransformation: Add 10-25% speed when used

Panorama
Wall Climb: Check to make sure values are the same as what the skill info says.
Flip view: Cut time flipped by half
Rematch: Set a limit to rematches; 2 maybe 3

Vagabond
Half the total levels of the race change new skill maxes to be 75-80% of current maxes
Flickering Shadows: Remove and deduct the levels from the total level of the race
Levitation: Change values to .8-.4 of normal.
Complete Invisibility:[Will also apply to Vagalion] Add a 3 second cooldown to all levels
Complete Invisibility:[Will also apply to Vagalion] Add a delay to when the player becomes invisible making it in flight rather than before
Complete Invisibility:[Will also apply to Vagalion] Add a trail for 0.25 seconds after initial use
Complete Invisibility:[Will also apply to Vagalion] Half the time after use that the player is frozen
Shopmenu: Restrict Periapt of Heath

Strider Hiryu
(Remove the race; I'm serious with this )
Flying Dragon: Decrease speed to a maximum of 1.7; 1.6 preferred
Flying Dragon: Add a 25-10 second cooldown after releasing the ability1 key
Kayakujutsu: Decrease burn time by half
Kayakujutsu: Remove burn time, replace with a 10% slow for the current burn time
Portal: Add a 30-15 second cooldown
Shopmenu: Restrict Cloak

Raiden
Thunder God: Change ability into a speed ability 1.25-1.35 max
Thunder God: Change ability to a ward ability; 1 ward, 20-25 damage every 1.5-2 seconds at max level
Raiden's Wrath: Change to a passive 0.5-4% chance to strike an enemy with lighting instantly killing them or dealing heavy damage; 70-150

Hell Hunter
Fire arrows: Remove burn and double the damage over time
Fire grenades: Increase the area of effect by 1.5

Chameleon
Bash: See Human Bash
Entangle: See Human Bash

Hell's Demon
Restrict: Shotguns and P90

Magician
Shopmenu: Restrict Ring or Clock

Shadow of the Void
Deaths Shadow: Double the damage
Vision of the Void: Double the duration of the blind
Vision of the Void: Increase max chance to 30%

Eye Ra
Lens of Truth: Fix?
Summon: Add a range 3-4 times that of Orcs chainlightning( ~150 feet)

Nebula
Proto Star: Reduce max chance to 35%
Nebula: Reduce invis time to 3-3.5 seconds

Die Xonvert
Blood Lust: Change to 15% chance to do 10-25 damage and gain it yourself
Freeze by Fear: See Human Bash

Beast
Burning Beast: Change ability into "Raging Beast" 5-10% chance when hit to give full ammo and 10-15 HP

Rapscallion
Blades: Switch with Vagalion's Blades
Complete Invisibility: Remove cooldown
Complete Invisibility: Remove current animation and replace with Vagalion ultimate visual.

Athena
Medusa's gaze: Triple the cooldown
Medusa's gaze: Remove the tracing visual
Medusa's gaze: See Human Bash
Medusa's gaze: Half the freeze time
Medusa's gaze: Decrease range by 25%
Shopmenu: Unrestrict Lace

Dragon Fly
Blood Loss: Double the damage and increase the proc chance by 10% at max
Shopmenu: Restrict Ahnk[Needs to also be made so that one can't get the weapon, die, changerace then buy ahnk. Perhaps making Dragon Fly changerace only when you next spawn]

Jack
-Will do when I'm next on the server can't remember skill names-

Vagalion
Flickering shadows: Remove and deduct levels from race's total level
Blades: Switch with Rapscallions Blades
Levitation: Change values to 0.8-0.4 of normal
Complete Invisibility: See Vagabond

Santa
-Will do when I'm next on the server can't remember skill names-


If you have any question about why I suggest something in particular please do ask and I'll try to relay why I think the change is fitting. Also others feel free to add other suggestions to the list or change my suggestions a bit.

[What]

It looks like you made a list of things you don't like more than a list of balancing issues, in fact, im 100% certain thats what this is.

Unrestricting those guns is a terrible idea, and restricting the p90 makes no sense, yes it is a good gun on wcs, but no better or worse than the m4 or ak which beat it out on amount of damage and kills overall.

Tracing visuals were added to most of those races you mentioned, they are there for a reason.

You do realize almost everything you suggest would make the game tremendously more unbalanced, like allowing athena to purchase a lace or completely nerfing their abilities, like medusas gaze on athena.

As for your bash comments, the complete freeze fucked up your aim far more than the slowing effect, which is why it was changed.

Rapscallion cooldown is not an issue once it is maxed, there is a reason it has levels.

Lulz on cooldown for vaga

Most of the abilitites you want to change would make some of the races identical to others.

Thats all im going to comment on right now, I mean seriously, you either suggested a total nerf for abiliites you don't like, or making the ones you do completely OP. Congratulations the longest and worst post I have ever read.

[Wolfenstinger]

http://www.ibisgaming.com/forums/showthread.php/8989-031-Jack-300-v1-0-3

http://www.ibisgaming.com/forums/showthread.php/9594-033-Santa-320-v1-0-3

Don't need to get back on the server to look at the race abilities. They are already listed in the forums under WCS Races. Now.... about your Vagabond/Vagalion requests - I have say in it and you probably expected this shit, who the fuck knows or cares. To make it easier than scrolling up and down - I'm requoting them as if though it was the Race Suggestion Thread.



Vagabond
Half the total levels of the race change new skill maxes to be 75-80% of current maxes
Flickering Shadows: Remove and deduct the levels from the total level of the race
Levitation: Change values to .8-.4 of normal.
Complete Invisibility:[Will also apply to Vagalion] Add a 3 second cooldown to all levels
Complete Invisibility:[Will also apply to Vagalion] Add a delay to when the player becomes invisible making it in flight rather than before
Complete Invisibility:[Will also apply to Vagalion] Add a trail for 0.25 seconds after initial use
Complete Invisibility:[Will also apply to Vagalion] Half the time after use that the player is frozen
Shopmenu: Restrict Periapt of Heath

Flickering Shadows (for Vagabond) -> I still remember when that was actually broken and never worked.
Don't care so much for Levitation. I can argue about that with you because shit is lower than Vagalion.
Complete Invisibility -> no. Keep the .5 sec CD on the race. You get rid of Flickering Shadows, you're asking the player who plays either vaga races to play like a rapscallion that can actually fly successfully. Also they are literally walking targets at that point (which I imagine is what you want.)
Don't care about any shop restrictions like Periapt of Health because I rarely buy items.



Vagalion
Flickering shadows: Remove and deduct levels from race's total level
Blades: Switch with Rapscallions Blades
Levitation: Change values to 0.8-0.4 of normal
Complete Invisibility: See Vagabond

Time for Vagalion!
Flickering Shadows (for Vagalion) -> refer to my thoughts on Flickering Shadows (for Vagabond). IMO though - don't make us go completely invisible. Make it like Vagabond's Flickering Shadow and I would be fine with this. When we go Completely Invisible without even teleporting, we are just a floating knife. It's silly. I'd rather blink like a Vagabond than fade.
Blades -> Teehee... I'd still proc as many times as I need to with it.
Levitation -> Should both be same for Vagalion and Vagabond. I think Vagabond is SLIGHTLY faster too.
Complete Invisibility -> Teleknifing is a thing. Sorry. Love, Wolfenstinger.



Those are my only two races I'm going to touch base on. If I touch on any more, it would take a couple posts. . .

[What]

Well I think you hit the nail on the head when you said , "I imagine its what you want." Thats what 99% of these suggestions are.

Anything that causes extra damage, fucks up aim, or is hard to hit is something he wants to see gone or reduced to a useless level. Why? Because thats how he feels he gets killed the most.

Brice, if you want a straight up, "I shoot faster and better than you" type of mod, play gungame. Your "Suggestions" for wcs would make the abilities of nearly every race an after thought. Thats not what WCS is and thats not what makes it fun.

[kionay]

the comment on bash gave me idea, the freeze (and slow) messes with projectiles because of momentum

perhaps this can be remedied by slowing the player 100% (like it does now) but immediately after you undo that and then redo it again, the undo should (might?) reset the momentum issue so that the only momentum is the nearly insignificant amount between when they're unfrozen and refrozen

the traces on the abilities should stay IMO

medusa's gaze might need to be a little longer on cooldown, but not nearly three times as long

void doesn't need more damage, it's pretty crazy as it is (i know since i use it quite often) and the vision thing is fine as is

raging beast is just a flat bad idea, get hit for 15, heal 45 with full ammo? if you want to make beast near unkillable sure

vagas as a race are fine as is, you can use eye ra to see them instead of buying something, some of the less appreciated (or harder to use) races might be encouraged to get an ability to see vagas like ra does to have an insentive to play them?

magician restrictions i think is a bad idea, the magician only needs to die once to lose those, bird is a magician's bread and butter really

eye ra is fine as is

weblines: MAYBE 1 second, if that
evade is pretty intense, but it's the spidey's most adventageous ability (arguable i suppose)



races shouldn't be average to kill as any race or no race, that's why we choose races, each race should be just a liiiiitle bit OP in it's own. unique. way.
these changes would largly make all the races more bland and narrow the differences between one and another

when you say "god i hate {RACE}'s {RACE_ABILITY}!" then something done right (most of the time)
each ability that makes each race a little bit OP should be able to be countered with gamesense or aim, for example just earlier today gunslinger and i were going at it, he was a vagabond i was night elf, his lack of aim, my evasion, and my aim let me win more than half the time against him

he could've killed me with just a little better aim or movement, i could've killed him more with better aim or by buying a lace (which i did later), our engagements were genuinly fun and challenging and, in my opinion, an amazing example of what engagements should be like between any given two races

flavorfull and fun, with a little bit of swaty-palm intensity that you get playing a really hard level of a video game (analogies yaaaaay)

[What]

Kiony, I don't understand how you can be a good admin, have an intelligent and coherent understanding of the mod, and still just be such pure garbage at the game. Are missing thumbs or something?

[kionay]

Kiony, I don't understand how you can be a good admin, have an intelligent and coherent understanding of the mod, and still just be such pure garbage at the game. Are missing thumbs or something?

thumbs no work well

how do i thumb?

my poor internet connection may have part to do with it (will change within the month as i move to an apartment with good interwebz)

most i think it's because the speed i'm comfortable with looking (not aiming, but directing my movement in-game) is higher than my speed at aiming

if i lower my speed i get annoyed that i can't look at the person fast enough, but with it as high as it is i can't aim at someone's head very well

also i'm very bad at correcting for recoil :-/

[Brice]

Fucks sake. Did that really not post? I ain't writing that shit a 3rd time tonight. I'll respond to all the posts some time tomorrow.

[What]

You do realize all of the comments are that those are not balance suggestions and/or are terrible ideas right?

[CYBER]

brice i'm sorry man, but this is by far the stupidest balancing sheet i've ever seen in my entire fucking life...

It's soooooo fucking stupid that i'm not even gonna bother pointing out the stupid parts, because i would literally not know where to start, and i KNOW that i might break a new wall-of-text goddamn world record in discussing the wrongness of your suggestions...


What does it matter to you anyway? you just play undead most of the time, and by removing the leech trail (like it was before) u're basically just making it the better class of the starting ones, because you can keep doing that bs leech thing that u and pie do without ppl being able to trace it back to your location...

I'm gonna walk out of this, the urge to shred through your original post is overwhelming.

[Wolfenstinger]

I'm poking at kionay's weird as fuck post just so I can make sense of it and state things that I don't like that he sees. Maybe it can change his view, IDK.


vagas as a race are fine as is, you can use eye ra to see them instead of buying something, some of the less appreciated (or harder to use) races might be encouraged to get an ability to see vagas like ra does to have an insentive to play them?

Vaga is broke as fuck. Play Rapscallion. Rapscallion is better than Vagalion, let alone Vagabond. It's like playing a Flame Predator on Steroids! (Steroids not included). But no there is some things that I already pointed out for Vaga, as far as levitation goes at least. I also still believe Vagabond is faster than Vagalion slightly because of it, but I don't know. The Levitation and Adrenaline difference do matter when you are looking for them on the live server! Even if the race is utilizing ALMOST the same code to teleport around, Vagalions aren't going to be as random as a Vagabond can be, BUT a Vagalion can teleport more often than a Vagabond could ever teleport. Because of this, I don't really care at what the Levitation and Adrenaline is set at, due to the fact everyone who plays either race adapted and are used to these values already. Changing the values WILL mess with everyone who plays either Vagalion or Vagabond.


magician restrictions i think is a bad idea, the magician only needs to die once to lose those, bird is a magician's bread and butter really

I do want to state here - Magician USED to be able to use any weapon, but would always spawn the next round with a Pump Shotty / Dualies. Might've been a bug, I don't know. I just remember leveling it back then with an M4 or a compact because I didn't like the Pump Shotty or Dualies. Now I think it's weapon kit has grown on me a bit for its skill set and to just take time on the shots rather than spraying. The Dualies are for spraying.

Levitation - as annoying as it is when it procs for the shooter and the one being shot at, it really does its part for the Magician as he could technically just be a complete tease to his enemies. Also because of the use of a Pump Shotty; being allowed that pause gives time to react to the Levitation if it procs

Crow - Cloak is stupid. Ring and Health is fine.


weblines: MAYBE 1 second, if that
evade is pretty intense, but it's the spidey's most adventageous ability (arguable i suppose)

Ok, after reading this, I realized you put the ultimate critique first, then the ability. So...... I'm doing the complete opposite because it bothers me.

Agility - Spidey's Bread n Butter. If you can bhop or even at least chain jumps, you're getting away. Evade just ENSUREs that you won't fall over and die right away. I'm not gonna lie, Evade is annoying, but its Evade. And he's Spider-man.

Web Lines - .5 sec CD like Vagabond or let us do 2 shots (a V shot like he does in the movies) with +ability or +ability1. It'd be interesting maneuvering mechanics for Spider-man



when you say "god i hate {RACE}'s {RACE_ABILITY}!" then something done right (most of the time)
each ability that makes each race a little bit OP should be able to be countered with gamesense or aim, for example just earlier today gunslinger and i were going at it, he was a vagabond i was night elf, his lack of aim, my evasion, and my aim let me win more than half the time against him

he could've killed me with just a little better aim or movement, i could've killed him more with better aim or by buying a lace (which i did later), our engagements were genuinly fun and challenging and, in my opinion, an amazing example of what engagements should be like between any given two races

flavorfull and fun, with a little bit of swaty-palm intensity that you get playing a really hard level of a video game (analogies yaaaaay)

Evade Proc = Luck of the draw. Meaning they aren't a TERRIBLE shot if they hit you, but at the same time, they still hit you. They just didn't hit you.

Now about buying laces. Personally kills MY fun in finding any vagas unless they are people like Cyber, Hypanova(Predator), Ronnie, etc...? (I don't know all the well known ones off the top of my head. I know a few old ones though! :smirk: ) But its more along when you get the lace rather when you already have it. The problem with already having it is that ALL vaga players will play as if you don't have one already (round 1). By round 2, they play semi-cautiously, but not TOO cautiously because you still don't have a lace. By round 3 - we either repeat round 2 because you don't have the money OR we change our methods slightly, adjusting for laces.

Quick-bind your lace to a convenient key (like on your mouse), bait the vaga into coming into close quarters with you, click the button. If it doesn't work, you either have bad positioning and can't figure out where the vaga you are fighting is, or I just make this sound easier said then done because I try to do stupid crazy things like around the corner knifing while you have a lace. I don't know.


TL;DR - I wanted to poke at kionay's post. Poke poke.

[kionay]

Vaga is broke as fuck. Play Rapscallion. Rapscallion is better than Vagalion, let alone Vagabond. It's like playing a Flame Predator on Steroids! (Steroids not included). But no there is some things that I already pointed out for Vaga, as far as levitation goes at least. I also still believe Vagabond is faster than Vagalion slightly because of it, but I don't know. The Levitation and Adrenaline difference do matter when you are looking for them on the live server! Even if the race is utilizing ALMOST the same code to teleport around, Vagalions aren't going to be as random as a Vagabond can be, BUT a Vagalion can teleport more often than a Vagabond could ever teleport. Because of this, I don't really care at what the Levitation and Adrenaline is set at, due to the fact everyone who plays either race adapted and are used to these values already. Changing the values WILL mess with everyone who plays either Vagalion or Vagabond.



you're wolf, bar none the best vagalion player i have ever seen in my ~6 months on the server, of course you'd say vaga is OP, a knife race in your hands is OP, gunslinger (not OP but still good XD ) was fun to play against, playing against you as vaga is almost certain death :P



Crow - Cloak is stupid. Ring and Health is fine.


killing crow without cloak is incredibly easy, i mean crow IS supposed to be an 'ULTIMATE' ability, seeing a crow without a cloak is like screaming "HERE I AM, SHOOT ME!"
but i can see why this could be arguable :-/





Agility - Spidey's Bread n Butter. If you can bhop or even at least chain jumps, you're getting away. Evade just ENSUREs that you won't fall over and die right away. I'm not gonna lie, Evade is annoying, but its Evade. And he's Spider-man.

Web Lines - .5 sec CD like Vagabond or let us do 2 shots (a V shot like he does in the movies) with +ability or +ability1. It'd be interesting maneuvering mechanics for Spider-man


I can't bhop for shit, i get like 2, MAYBE 3 hops in, evade is all i have for survivability (because i'm bad with weblines too, which is why you won't see me play spidey anytime soon) and i have seen some of the craziest evade chains on spidey, tanking full P90 clips point blank

as for the cooldown i'm not sure what 'a V shot like he does in the movies' means? but the .5 to 1 second cooldowns i think is a very good idea, the ability for spidey to get to the enemy spawn before the enemy team can get OUT of spawn is pretty crazy, not to say that spidey should be significantly slower, but ffs let them leave spawn first, let there be a beginning of round cooldown or something




... aren't a TERRIBLE shot if they hit you, but at the same time, they still hit you. They just didn't hit you.


this made me chuckle




Now about buying laces. Personally kills MY fun in finding any vagas unless they are people like Cyber, Hypanova(Predator), Ronnie, etc...? (I don't know all the well known ones off the top of my head.


you can have FUN finding vagas because you're... well good :P

for myself (and according to the complaints i hear from time-to-time in-game) a vaga swimming around you is one of the most annoying and stressfull things in the game, ESPECIALLY when playing against a vaga immune to laces (read 'wolfenstinger')

when a vaga is around me i cannot predict their movements (90% of the time, mostly because i'm so bad at the game) so buying a lace is the only defense i have against them, otherwise i usually wait for them to kill me, one of my better teammates to kill them, the round to end, or one of their teammates to find us and kill me


being bad at the game doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to have fun(otherwise why am I here?), and a vaga death sentence is not fun



TL;DR - I wanted to poke at kionay's post. Poke poke.

pokin' me eh? STAHP! XD

http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/poke-a-shaq.gif

[What]

The spidey web lines, like the vaga teleport of jack bhop, can be very good and allow people to travel very quickly, but it takes a level of skill to do this. Spidy's can still crash into walls and corners if the dont know what they are doing and they need to know where to aim the web in order to travel the most efficiently. Also, few of the people who play spidey are actually good at killing while zipping around, most come into the area, stop, fire some shots, and then shoot away, providing a good window to kill them.

The problem a lot of people have is that they see how good the top 1% is with a certain race, so they want the race nerfed in some way, yet when they unlock the race or try to play it, they usually blow. Thats not a race thing, thats a skill thing. Vagabond is really the case in point with this, noobs kill themselves all the time with it and those that dont usually take too long decloaked to shoot making themselves easy targets. Any race can seem op if the person using it is good and knows how to use it to the best advantage.

[CYBER]

The problem a lot of people have is that they see how good the top 1% is with a certain race, so they want the race nerfed in some way, yet when they unlock the race or try to play it, they usually blow. Thats not a race thing, thats a skill thing. Vagabond is really the case in point with this, noobs kill themselves all the time with it and those that dont usually take too long decloaked to shoot making themselves easy targets. Any race can seem op if the person using it is good and knows how to use it to the best advantage.


This. Another case is strider. For as long as I remember, strider was the second crappies race in the game after rapscallion, and I have never someone play the race beyond leveling it. and until deez figured out an original way to abuse the race, now people are crying about it.

I cannot stress how many players bitch about the invisible vaga, and claim that once they unlock the race they gonna be op. And when they unlock it, they see the difficulty in leveling all 50 levels, and then notice their negative kdr on the race for weeks and months...

[Masskid]

Server
Unrestrict Awp/Autos or restrict P90 as well.
I’m ok with 1 Auto per team, P90 2 per team

All races
200-250 HP hard cap
250hp hard cap sounds good

Shopmenu
Mask: Broken, fix or remove.
increase proc rate, proc %, max health cap
Boots: Increase bonus speed by 0.1-0.15
Add: Longjump item Cost 3500-4500
Add but higher cost
Add: Dust of apperance; colors enemy model some color for 3-6 seconds when hit. Should be made to work against bond, lion, rapscallion and any partial invis race
Yes

Undead
Vampiric Aura: Remove tracing visual
Vampiric Aura: Decrease leech amount by 15% at max, increase leech chance by 5% at max
With the hard cap i think everything on here should be fine

Human
Stormwind Cloak: Decrease invis percentage by 10-15% at max level
Fine where it’s at
Bash: Remove visual
It’s Fine
Bash: [This one will actually pertain to and be referenced by other skills later on that use the same method of stopping player movement] Remove 100% slow(This is an extremely poor way to handle assuring players are frozen due to how slows affect aim and recoil). Replace with a try/catch similar to lace that will detect if player is using a jetpack like ability or if the player is currently bashed or affected by another movement stopping skill. It will stop the ability for the duration of the bash, freeze them, then unfreeze and enable the skill again.
http://www.ibisgaming.com/forums/showthread.php/5424-004-Night-Elf-0-v1-0-7?p=174532#post174532
Shopmenu: Restrict Orb of Frost and Periapt of health.
I think its fine for it to have those items


Orcish Horde
Critical Strike: Remove tracing visual
It’s fine with them on
Critical Strike: Decrease critical strength by 15-25%, increase chance by 5-8% at max levels
Respawn: Decrease god mode time by half
God time makes things a bit awkward

Night Elf
Evasion: Remove tracing visual
Trueshot Aura: Remove tracing visual
Thorns: Remove tracing visual
Visuals Fine
Entangling Roots: See bash
http://www.ibisgaming.com/forums/showthread.php/5424-004-Night-Elf-0-v1-0-7?p=174532#post174532
Entangling Roots: Decrease entangled time by 2-3 seconds at max level; decrease cooldown by 25%
Shopmenu: Restrict Helm of Excellence
Don't think any race with evade should be allowed a Helm

Blood Mage
Banish: Rework this totally. Current banish is a concept failure as it alters the location of the crosshair making it 100% luck based kills while under its effects. The old reverse zoom was hugely effective.
They have been trying to fix it with no success
Flame Strike: Reduce burn time by half; Decrease cooldown by 30%
Burn time maybe by a few seconds but not by half, cooldown imo is fine

Shadow Hunter
Hex: Extremely underpowered. Only current value is attacking molecule through it's ultimate at a very rare chance. Perhaps a 1-5% chance ability to cause enemies to reload their weapon on attack.
I don’t even have a clue what hex does

Warden
Shadow strike: Double the slow and damage
Vengeance: Add a 5-25% chance to go into a Vengeance frenzy upon respawn gaining 10-30 HP and an addtional 4-12 damage on attack.

Crypt Lord
Locust Swarm: Do not allow use if player cannot gain any HP from use
Don’t like this Change
Locust Swarm: Add a range 1.5 times the size of Orcish Horde chain lighting
Locust Swarm: Change to passive with a 1-5% chance to inflict 10-30 damage and 15-35 armor damage on attack
maybe instead of global reduce side, but a lot bigger then orcs

Archmage
Earthquake: Decrease shake by a magnitude of 2
Weapons of the Archmage: Add a menu asking if you want to receive the weapons when it procs
This could fuck you up with a bloodmage respawn just like Chameleons Ability Menu

Flame Predator
Claw Attack: Change from a weapon drop to forcing the player to pull out their knife
Burning Blade: Decrease burn time by 0.5-1 seconds

Molecule
Speed: Decrease by 0.5-0.1 at max level
Evade: Decrease by 5% at max level
Force Field: Make it a clone of Shadow Hunters Voodoo
Force Field: Change to doubling evade for 2-6 seconds remove freeze and 100% slow
Restrict the god damn helm

Genocide
Regeneration: Change to a gain of 10-24(2 per level) HP per kill and 5% speed per kills.

Spider Man
Spidey Sense: drop max chance to 25% evade
Agility: Max LJ 140-150% drop speed by 10% at max
Web Shooter: See Bash.
See Bash Note
Web Shooter: 25% chance at max
Weblines: Add a 2-3 second cooldown. Have a longer cooldown at earlier levels.
that cool down is too high, Honestly i kinda like wolf’s idea of having 2 webs and being able to swing type movement
Restrict p90

Succubus Hunter
DTransformation: Add 10-25% speed when used

Panorama
Wall Climb: Check to make sure values are the same as what the skill info says.
Flip view: Cut time flipped by half
Keep it the same
Rematch: Set a limit to rematches; 2 maybe 3
NO NO AWWW HELL NO, while you’re at it why not just take the fun out the game >:(

Vagabond
Half the total levels of the race change new skill maxes to be 75-80% of current maxes
Flickering Shadows: Remove and deduct the levels from the total level of the race
Levitation: Change values to .8-.4 of normal.
Complete Invisibility:[Will also apply to Vagalion] Add a 3 second cooldown to all levels
Complete Invisibility:[Will also apply to Vagalion] Add a delay to when the player becomes invisible making it in flight rather than before
Complete Invisibility:[Will also apply to Vagalion] Add a trail for 0.25 seconds after initial use
Complete Invisibility:[Will also apply to Vagalion] Half the time after use that the player is frozen
Shopmenu: Restrict Periapt of Heath
just not gonna read this one, i dont care about bond or lion much. Wolfie will say everything

Strider Hiryu
(Remove the race; I'm serious with this )
Flying Dragon: Decrease speed to a maximum of 1.7; 1.6 preferred
Flying Dragon: Add a 25-10 second cooldown after releasing the ability1 key
Kayakujutsu: Decrease burn time by half
Kayakujutsu: Remove burn time, replace with a 10% slow for the current burn time
Portal: Add a 30-15 second cooldown
Shopmenu: Restrict Cloak
Remove knife while flying. That or add knife to dragonfly and remove the knife from strider(Fuck you strider)

Raiden
Thunder God: Change ability into a speed ability 1.25-1.35 max
Thunder God: Change ability to a ward ability; 1 ward, 20-25 damage every 1.5-2 seconds at max level
Raiden's Wrath: Change to a passive 0.5-4% chance to strike an enemy with lighting instantly killing them or dealing heavy damage; 70-150
Dont care

Hell Hunter
Fire arrows: Remove burn and double the damage over time
Fire grenades: Increase the area of effect by 1.5
Still dont care

Chameleon
Bash: See Human Bash
Entangle: See Human Bash

Hell's Demon
Restrict: Shotguns and P90

Magician
Shopmenu: Restrict Ring or Clock
Ring is fine

Shadow of the Void
Deaths Shadow: Double the damage
Vision of the Void: Double the duration of the blind
Vision of the Void: Increase max chance to 30%

Eye Ra
Lens of Truth: Fix?
Summon: Add a range 3-4 times that of Orcs chainlightning( ~150 feet)

Nebula
Proto Star: Reduce max chance to 35%
Nebula: Reduce invis time to 3-3.5 seconds

Die Xonvert
Blood Lust: Change to 15% chance to do 10-25 damage and gain it yourself
Freeze by Fear: See Human Bash

Beast
Burning Beast: Change ability into "Raging Beast" 5-10% chance when hit to give full ammo and 10-15 HP

Rapscallion
Blades: Switch with Vagalion's Blades
Complete Invisibility: Remove cooldown
Complete Invisibility: Remove current animation and replace with Vagalion ultimate visual.
Revert Blades back to previous where each blades had a chance to proc on each other, but at the same time restrict Claw(side note, When i asked zero, during development, he told me that the skill procing on each other was intentional. So I'm not sure why he removed it)

Athena
Medusa's gaze: Triple the cooldown
maybe 1.5 it
Medusa's gaze: Remove the tracing visual
Medusa's gaze: See Human Bash
Medusa's gaze: Half the freeze time
Medusa's gaze: Decrease range by 25%
Shopmenu: Unrestrict Lace
make the range of the skill lace multiply by 1.5 when paired with lace

Dragon Fly
Blood Loss: Double the damage and increase the proc chance by 10% at max
Shopmenu: Restrict Ahnk[Needs to also be made so that one can't get the weapon, die, changerace then buy ahnk. Perhaps making Dragon Fly changerace only when you next spawn]
Give it a knife while flying

Jack
-Will do when I'm next on the server can't remember skill names-
reduce proc on each skill along with not allowing them to proc on each other

Vagalion
Flickering shadows: Remove and deduct levels from race's total level
Blades: Switch with Rapscallions Blades
Levitation: Change values to 0.8-0.4 of normal
Complete Invisibility: See Vagabond
Wolfie got this

[What]

First off, the p90 needs to be available to everyone. Its the go to gun for people who need a fighting shot and when you can't afford a rifle.

Second, how could you possibly limit items per team when you have races that can spawn guns and abilities that let you keep your weapons after your death?

[Masskid]

First off, the p90 needs to be available to everyone. Its the go to gun for people who need a fighting shot and when you can't afford a rifle.

Let me fix this for you

First off, the P90 needs to go fuck itself. Its the go to gun for people who don't fucking feel like learning to aim/have no skill

[Wolfenstinger]

Whatever happened to MP5 Kevlar? Or that's not a thing on WCS? I mean... its still Counter-Strike. :headache:

[What]

Let me fix this for you

First off, the P90 needs to go fuck itself. Its the go to gun for people who don't fucking feel like learning to aim/have no skill


Again, it seems that the issue with the p90 is that it is a weapon that gets a lot of the better, lets call them finesse, players killed. Limiting items, abilities, or guns because it causes frustration for not being able to run around indiscriminately killing everyone is not going to balance anything, it will unbalance the shit out of it.

[Pie Q]

Brice is $100 correct about removing Strider. The class just slows down the game and doesn't provide anything fun for opposing players. Lace should at least disable flying. This would effectively restrict strider to a flanking race.

For the rest of the suggestions, A+ list would read again.

[Masskid]

Brice is $100 correct about removing Strider. The class just slows down the game and doesn't provide anything fun for opposing players. Lace should at least disable flying. This would effectively restrict strider to a flanking race.

For the rest of the suggestions, A+ list would read again.

wtf is $100 correct?

[Wolfenstinger]

It was his first post... and you had to point out his biggest flaw in it.

Leave the poor pie alone!

[What]

Pie Q? More like Pie Ewwww!

[Pie Q]

I'm going to return to my original ( silly lel) statement and try to make sense of what brice wants to accomplish.


To be honest, there is a fundamental balance issue here within WCS and it doesn't just involve specific races. WCS, at its core, punishes good aim, good movement and gamesense while rewarding
Spraying and fast, imprecise movement.
I feel as though the headshot is an intrinsic part of balance inside of Counter Strike.
Players toil endlessly away in DM servers, in bot maps, in Scrims and Pubs trying to hone their movement and aim so they can succesfully land a headshot.
The headshot separates the bad from the ok, the ok from the good, and the good from the great. Punishing a player for simply being good is a travesty. With that in mind ,I feel if we balance WCS around the headshot we will be in much better shape!

It should never be negated, evaded, or resisted. It should be rewarded

General Proposed Changes

Health capped at 175
Perapit of health adds +25 health
Helmet removed ( pants wet as we speak)
Evade no longer works against headshot ("A+ suggestion" - Times Magazine)

These changes will make a WORLD of difference. Rewarding skill allows good players to stand against some of the faster (OP races) races.


Human
125 starting health
Bash works similiar to recoil. Every shot Increases the cooldown for another "bash" shot. if you spray, none of your shots will bash.


Molecule and shadow hunter(?)
-When bubbled, can only go for headshots
-Bodyshots remove .3 seconds of bubble

Same for the other bullshit race I can't remember because I'm tired. It turns invincible too


Undead and other speedy races
-Decrease InnacuracyMove and Increase Recoilmagnitude ( Less accuracy while moving and a larger spray pattern while standing)
+10% headshot damage. If you can headshot an undead, you deserve to kill them ( with m4 or ak, they could still survive a headshot if they have 175 health)

Makes it more difficult for the undead and other races to simply spam the directional keys and still get hits

( for an empircal reason for this approach I'd like to remind you that in CSGO the accel value/innacuracyMove was only slightly higher than it was now and it allowed people to ADADADA with ASSAULT RIFLES and get kills. It's silly)


Fagabonds and Fagalions
-Has only a slightly increased movement speed while not Using Ultimate (OH NOOOO I HAVE TO BE VULNERABLE SOMETIMES?)
-Get rid of the vagabond Crit. Just...HE CAN FLY AND BE AT ANY POSITION HE WANTS AND HE HAS AN AWP.

JUST MAKE IT SO WHOEVER HE SHOOTS HAS TO DO A HANDSTAND OR SOME SHIT I DUNNO


AWP makes you walk Slow for a reason.


Succubus Hunter
Max health Applies
5 health per skull
Max 15 skulls
Give it Jack's bunnyhop. Jack gets succubus's bunny hop

Ak vs m4

The M4/AK is balanced around the team's respective playstyle. The T's are usually pushing. The AK thus excels at close range engagement with its high damage, lower accuracy and 100 damage headshots.
The m4 excels in the opposite way, very accurate and silent, favoring sneaky and defensive plays from a distance. As it stands the M4 is much more preferrable to the AK because many classes have over 100 health, to balance this
Give the AK a headshot damage of 125, allowing a single headshot kill on humans without extra health.


Mrs. Treehoe

She's a slut. $15 a blowie is still pretty cheap tho ( look her up)


p90 vs AWP

-Almost complete opposties. AWPing is a defense, stationary role while the P90 is a close range, rushing SMG. The AWP should be restricted to the CTs and the P90 to the ts.

Ankh doesn't works with AWP or m249 because THE ECONOMY IN COUNTER STRIKE IS IMPORTANT YOU FUCKS

Fuck hostage maps they're bullshit. Why the fuck can vagas rescue the hostages you morons?


I know I'm going to get a lot of flak for trying to make WCS require a modicum of skill. The butthurt squad will come rushing in once they realize these changes would negate 90% of their playstyles.

I don't know why I'm even suggesting this since WCS is dead anyway. Take this advice and form WCGO around them and you might maintain a community of more than 100 people.

[CYBER]

the ONLY ONLY ONLY thing that even remotely didn't make me want to strangle you in your sleep pie,
was your suggestion to swap the bhops...


As I currently see it?
Spiderman should have Succubus's current bhop.
Jack should have spiderman's current bhop, maybe with like a 5% distance reduction.
And Succubus should GO BACK TO ITS FUCKING GLORY DAYS of the jack-like bhop with higher/longer jumps...


I really miss when succubus hunter was the go to "pro" race, rewarded for getting kills, rewarded for being the best.
But the race is underwhelming now, underrated for sure and still packs a punch, but not as good as it once was...

I'm willing to suggest adding that jack-like + high/distance jump to succubus that it used to have before, and in exchance, tweak it so it's no longer a "just keep getting 1 kill every now and then and wait for its late game..." or as i2o4 used to play it "I'ma stay on this race when there isnt many people in the server so that when people join, i'd have max skulls all game".

I strongly think that this movement buff suggestion can be compensated by making it so that you lose skulls at a round-rate. The more skulls is you have, the faster u lose them.
For example, start out with losing a skull once per 5 rounds, then at 10 skulls you lose one skull per 3 rounds, at 20 skulls you lose once skull per 2 rounds, and at max skulls, you will lose a skull once a round,

i.e you can't stay maxed forever unless you keep your killing streak...instead of the currently INSANELY SLOW pace that this race has compared to all other races.
The fact is, this race is NOT USED as a KNIFING race, although its kit suggest otherwise... and the problem is MAINLY its movement... perhaps with a loooooongjump buff, it can be used more with a knife assassinating people, than as a camping TANK gun race.

ima go post this on the succubus thread too... see what ppl think

[kionay]

It should never be negated, evaded, or resisted. It should be rewarded

i don't know about NEVER, CS:S needs to be skill based, absolutely, but if we don't make it moderately capable for new players to join then we will stagnate and die without new, fresh blood
making it more difficult for new players to stay alive (helm) would only encourage people to not play on the server
ya you can say they should get good then come here, but since CS:S is slowly going dieing then if we don't get all the people we can (new or experienced) the server will die faster still



General Proposed Changes
Evade no longer works against headshot


this just doesn't make a whole lot of sense for a race, the race is at it's core supposed to be hard to hit, except it's head? does every other part of it's body move at quantum speeds allowing bullets to occassionally pass through it? evade working on every part makes fine sense, and if other aspects are implemented to reward headshots then this doesn't need to be one of them



Human
125 starting health
Bash works similiar to recoil. Every shot Increases the cooldown for another "bash" shot. if you spray, none of your shots will bash.


125 starting health? for a maxed race an extra 25 is a drop in the bucket and not worth much
a maxed human needs to be more powerful than this (though, arguably, less powerful than they are now?)




Molecule and shadow hunter(?)
-Bodyshots remove .3 seconds of bubble


shooting a bubbled person with a gun that happens to shoot quickly would decimate it, this works fine if everyone uses pistols, but with sub machine guns the bubble might damn near not as well be there




Undead and other speedy races
-Decrease InnacuracyMove and Increase Recoilmagnitude ( Less accuracy while moving and a larger spray pattern while standing)
+10% headshot damage. If you can headshot an undead, you deserve to kill them ( with m4 or ak, they could still survive a headshot if they have 175 health)

Makes it more difficult for the undead and other races to simply spam the directional keys and still get hits


so you want to encourage them to stand still, and make it easier to kill them when they do what they're now supposed to do (stand still/move less) ?
the speedy races make for a chaotic and inherently fun environment (when the teams aren't stacked >.> ) but with this implementation the matches would be people turning a corner, sitting still in a momentary deathmatch to see who headshots the other first, this may make it more skill-based, but it makes it less fun, even for better players
and after all, we're not competing, this is a video game, and this mod is supposed to be FUN at it's core

FFFUUUNNNN



Fagabonds and Fagalions
-Has only a slightly increased movement speed while not Using Ultimate (OH NOOOO I HAVE TO BE VULNERABLE SOMETIMES?)
-Get rid of the vagabond Crit. Just...HE CAN FLY AND BE AT ANY POSITION HE WANTS AND HE HAS AN AWP.


maybe reduce the crit, or only crit on a headshot, but not remove it, it's the vaga's bread and butter the extra damage (though maybe set them on fire, that could be entertaining and annoying, hehehe) and the vaga speed is fine, they're plenty vulnerable if you have a lace or a race that effectively has a lace




Ak vs m4

The M4/AK is balanced around the team's respective playstyle. The T's are usually pushing. The AK thus excels at close range engagement with its high damage, lower accuracy and 100 damage headshots.
The m4 excels in the opposite way, very accurate and silent, favoring sneaky and defensive plays from a distance. As it stands the M4 is much more preferrable to the AK because many classes have over 100 health, to balance this
Give the AK a headshot damage of 125, allowing a single headshot kill on humans without extra health.


this team restriction doesn't work for hostage rescue, when the Ts camp, or if a CT wants to play jack (less they get an M4 now instead)
this may make some sense, but some races will go against the inherent playstyle of T or CT on a given map
just because a CT is spidey doesn't mean they should camp, or be punished with a weapon restriction just because of their team
this will lead to more "i want to play X race so someone let me on the other team" or people stacking teams with another justification being the race they wanna play or level



some of these would work in theory for vanilla CS:S and it's wane towards a less fun, more strict kill-or-be-killed playstyle, it's more serious, it's more strategical

but this is WCS, we mod it to be more fun, not to be more L33T, it's supposed to be crazy, and hectic, and chaotic with people running at super speeds or teleporting about or flying as fucking SANTA CLAUS

the classes may need more balancing, but making the game less fun is a horrible way to balance them, if you're going to reward headshots, do so in a fun way, make it so that headshots haev a 10% to light someone on fire or something for a class that needs to be more powerful

or (if possible) give someone a bigger head (and hitbox) if they need to be nerfed for headshots, this keeps the game silly, but is a reasonable adaptation to playstyle

i don't play vanilla because i don't like the bland taste, i prefer superman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superman_ice_cream) or rocky road (fuck my sweet tooth is getting to me)

[CYBER]

Its ok pie to complain about evades and helms and bubbles fucking up your impeccable and skillful headbanging accuracy.

Or at least, that's what I understood from you butchering basically everything that would put a wedge on ur own play style.

But hang in there bud, I'm sure an update will be available to download real fucking soon, and then your aim will be alright again! :plzdie:

[Wolfenstinger]

I think the reason why Succubus Hunter's Bhop is so slow is because of the Spider-Man hype that spawned out of nowhere when Spider-Man was around. Because of it; a lot of things were changed. Listing what I know off top of my head, so not all of it may be accurate.

-Lace radius was increased
-When users have a lace, can not stare directly at that target and it ultimate anymore
-Air Acceleration slightly nerfed?
-LongJump boosts adjusted for Succubus Hunter, Chameleon, Spider-man, and =Jack=


As far as everything else Pie Q mentioned; i'm not gonna say anything about it. Neither for nor against it. Other than the Fagabond / Vaginalion bit. That made me chuckle... Only because Vagalion has a lower jump but slightly faster than a Vagabond, but Vagabond jumps higher than a Vagalion. Pretty sure they are using the same numbers too, but I have no evidence as to if I know this or not because I don't.






Since this is a "Balance Suggestion" Thread, here's my two cents

-Reduce Lace range back to what it was before the Spider-Man rage quitting.
-Give Vagalion less gravity for equality between Vagabond/Vagalion OR give Vagabond more gravity. They both teleport similarly but Vagabond is more mobile at getting to the air than a Vagalion. If the numbers are the same as before the server got reset, then nevermind.

[the_best_noob]

So, uh, basically, remove the need to switch races to counter a specific person? Seriously, the reason for races having very different abilities is so that they are effective/ineffective against other races.

I support the succumbs changes, but I also don't want more people to start playing it.

[What]

Pie Q? More like Pie Ewwww!

Still holds true