Races question

[Blackmage]

I'm testing a theory and was wondering, what does the community think are the strongest and weakest races on the server?

I'm not looking for overplayed, it doesn't matter if you like the race or not, I don't care if they have counters or are balanced. I'm just looking for people's gut feelings on this one.

[Xerenix]

Vagalion as strongest race in my case.

Succubus as it is now is weakest for me.

[What]

Strongest in relevance to them being played to their best ability:

Santa, Strider, Human, Jack

Weakest in the same regard:

Rapscallion, Orc, Hell Hunter

[Wolfenstinger]

(Night Elf) Rapscallion Stronkest Race :smirk:

(Archmage Proudmore) Vagalion Weakest Race :smirk:

[Passarelli]

Human > Santa > Bond > Die Xonvert > Molecule

SotV < Panorama

This is only when laces are used. Without laces it changes to something like

Athena > Night Elf > Shadow Hunter > Molecule

Magician < SotV < Panorama

[Wolfenstinger]

Of the 33 races, 1 being best, 33 being worse... goes as follows. . .

33. Archmage Proudmore
32. Chameleon
31. Hell Hunter
30. Magician
29. Rapscallion
28. Dragonfly
27. Die Xonvert
26. Hells Demon
25. Shadow of the Void
24. Raiden
23. Genocide
22. Orcish Horde
21. Warden
20. Flame Predator
19. Undead Scourge
18. Beast
17. Succubus Hunter
16. Crypt Lord
15. Santa
14. Strider
13. =Jack=
12. Human Alliance
11. Eye Ra
10. Panorama
09. Blood Mage
08. Nebula
07. Molecule
06. Vagalion
05. Vagabond
04. Spider-Man
03. Shadow Hunter
02. Athena
01. Night Elf

It's somewhat as close as I can get to what I look for when i'm playing Lion.... Some I make mental notes for such as the Undead Scourge, Flame Predator, and Shadow of the Void due to the suicide bombs / black holes. Vagas aren't #1 and #2 on the list because they can still be shut down easily. This whole list is composed of just the races themselves if they are all considered of equal skill level and not one shop menu item.

[Passarelli]

Wolf, you need to make another list when everyone (or most people) have laces since they are so powerful, common, and change the rankings so drastically.

Also, Archmage is better then you think. The flight is useful sometimes (CT on Italy or CT Cbble). Even without flight the speed boost, aim screw, and free m4 is pretty powerful.

EDIT: Also, you have Die Xonvert down twice.

[Sin]

Where the fuck is my Jack on this list?

[Wolfenstinger]

*fixd to have Jack in #13 over 2 Die Xonverts... Whoops.

[Passarelli]

O.o you really think xonvert is that bad? Bash, Health, and the highest speed of any race? It is one of the funniest races. Given, I have to run back to spawn for ammo usually once per round.

[Wolfenstinger]

Apparently I never posted what I was gonna say earlier.... whatever...

Sum it up : if you want me to make a list based off of the use of a Necklace of Immunity, I can. It'd just be from the perspective of what I see more threatening as a normal Vagalion player due to THINGS I DON'T LIKE GETTING STUCK BY. But as far as making these lists go, it's extremely biased off of my own opinion as what I see as a major threat or annoyance as of now.

Also I don't see any of the races "weak" such as Die Xonvert or Archmage. They are placed there for my entertainment value of "how longs it take for me to get my knife in you?" game.

[Blackmage]

Given your list is all about which is most annoying to a lion rather than powerful on the server in general, the necklace input wouldn't help. The list you give is helpful for something else I've been looking at for a LONG time, and your comments help as a corollary.

Given you have a full ranking list, how much thought was put into the various rankings, or was it more "This race exists and isn't THAT annoying"?

[Passarelli]

Lawl, no wonder I thought your list was funny.

[Wolfenstinger]

I've put a decent amount of thought into the list since like mid-late 2011. Sometime around there I had a hand-written "How to Vagalion" guide constructed as well which, 85-95% of everything in it could still be used to today. Though, if you really want to imagine what was scribbled down in it, it's to not be so stupid and get creative with what you do. Also have fun. Lots of fun. If you aren't having fun, then what are you doing? If I can recall, I even put in how to find a Vagalion very easily... which it was still pretty accurate when I experimented with it again when I was leveling on WCS.

Granted I don't play with shopmenu items like they are sent from the heavens everytime i'm winning, and I can play very... VERY... recklessly... creating a "Necklace of Immunity" based list would be useful only towards Vagalion more than Vagabond due to the range difference. In reality though, this list would look like this :

33. Vagalion
32. Vagabond
31. Rapscallion
30 - 01. Everyone Else.

^-- it's very accurate. But however, there are also many factors that I've put in such as Vagalion with a Necklace and without. The whole reason I play without a necklace is because if you DO have one, are human, and tele in my direction.... You can do that, and not know I'm there. The little things that play big factors in WCS that people overlook. Those moments where people seriously stand still and are like "I GOT HIM GUYS!!!" while I'm still sitting across the map staring at them this whole time invisible... Yeah. You people know who you are... And you know I always try to stab the guy screaming. They always make the funniest reactions when they die. :wtg:

But yes, there is a difference between my Necklace of Immunity list and my Power-House list. Granted, I've played my fair share of Archmage before people thought it was cool, and played Succubus Hunter alongside people like Xerenix as well, again... BEFORE it was cool... Yeh, I have lots of information I could share still on my thoughts of individual races and their personal rankings I give.

[Erdenay]

This is my list. My assumptions are: a regular map (not something like Nipperhouse or port where some races gain exponential strength), max level, full items and a player is of exceptional quality (I.E. someone who can use the race to the best of its abilities).

33. Rapscallion
32. Hell-hunter
31. Warden
30. Panorama^1
29. Chameleon
28. Magician^2
27. Dragonfly
26. Orc
25. Eye Ra
24. Shadow of the Void
23. Genocide^3
22. Flame Predator
21. Beast
20. Bloodmage^4
19. Undead Scourge
18. Night Elf
17. Raiden
16. Die Xonvert
15. Crypt Lord^5
14. Archmage Proudmore
13. Succubus Hunter^6
12. Strider
11. Athena
10. Hells Demon
9. Shadow Hunter
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think there's a HUGE gap between all of the previous races and the following 8 (or the BIG 8). With truly skillful players, any of these can be nigh unplayable.
8. Vagalion
7. Santa
6. Jack
5. Nebula^7
4. Molecule
3. Spiderman
2. Human
1. Vagabond

^1 - this race can increase in value a lot for the TEAMPLAY if you have someone who has a high skill ceiling and is selfless (doesn't care about stats), so the potential for this race in a 10 v 10 for me would be significantly different than just overall strength of the race in most situations.
^2 - Magician is an interesting case as it can potential be up at Big 8 (invisible bird with 150 health), but the randomness and overall situation leaves this race quite low.
^3 - same as ^1 (panorama)
^4 - Bloodmage's value significantly increases in large team situations (10 v 10) and a large amount of bloodmages can overpower nearly anything by raw force (we've done such an experiment).
^5 - Somewhat same situation as Athena ---> this race is incredibly powerful in the winning team, but significantly worse in the losing situations. Both of these races can possibly be even in top 5 as far as devastation goes, but it's not consistent, thus the low place.
^6 - A full powered up succubus hunter can be nearly unkilleable, but considering the effort needed to get it powered up starting the first round it suffers from a relatively low placement.
^7 - Nebula, IMO, can possibly as the single MOST USEFUL race in WCS in the right team environments: it is incredibly strong in dueling (1v1) and swarming scenarios (1v5+), but it also gives one of the best tools for the team to succeed, so I'd possibly rate it as the strongest 10v10 race out there.

As noted above, these assessments were done in case of the nearly perfect player example. If I'd have to say the race strength on average, I'd pick human, spiderman and molecule as three strongest races probably followed by hells demon and then Athena or Crypt Lord. Race strength also varies drastically with maps, players and teams, so it is incredibly difficult to pin it down.

[kionay]

Magician is an interesting case as it can potential be up at Big 8 (invisible bird with 150 health), but the randomness and overall situation leaves this race quite low.


none too fond am i of the memories of deez destroying with magician, crow specifically
(side note: why can't i find him on PsychoStats ? did he get ibis/vac banned or something?)



Bloodmage's value significantly increases in large team situations (10 v 10) and a large amount of bloodmages can overpower nearly anything by raw force (we've done such an experiment).


haha yeah i remember doing something like this, all repsawns all day, i remember ronnie getting pissed we'd respawn so much he ran out of ammo
probably one of the most fun things to do, really


And you know I always try to stab the guy screaming. They always make the funniest reactions when they die. :wtg:

fuck.

[Passarelli]

Kionay, he likely fell off the stats page from inactivity.

[kionay]

Kionay, he likely fell off the stats page from inactivity.

didn't know that was a thing since it says several thousand people's stats and searching 'deez' comes up nothing

unless he originally went by something else and the search doesn't take into account all aliases (which isn't unreasonable)

if wcs stays dead too much longer everyone will get wiped off then XD

[CYBER]

didn't know that was a thing since it says several thousand people's stats and searching 'deez' comes up nothing

unless he originally went by something else and the search doesn't take into account all aliases (which isn't unreasonable)

if wcs stays dead too much longer everyone will get wiped off then XD
when someone goes inactive for too long, their stats aren't reachable anymore by search and they fall off the list.
the ONLY way to get their stats is to google their steam id or commonly used name ALONG with "wcs_stats"
for example "cyber ibis.a wcs_stats" and it would open up a cached version of that stats page.

source: i use that shit all the time when looking up bypassers.



also :

HUMAN is the most OP race in the game to anyone who can land 1 bullet.
the rest is situational depending on the map...
but human's one of those races with zero weaknesses and can be played in ANY map, no matter what... which shouldn't be the case....
for example, the difficulty of playing molecule in dolls.
etc

[kionay]

when someone goes inactive for too long, their stats aren't reachable anymore by search and they fall off the list.
the ONLY way to get their stats is to google their steam id or commonly used name ALONG with "wcs_stats"
for example "cyber ibis.a wcs_stats" and it would open up a cached version of that stats page.

source: i use that shit all the time when looking up bypassers.



also :

HUMAN is the most OP race in the game to anyone who can land 1 bullet.
the rest is situational depending on the map...
but human's one of those races with zero weaknesses and can be played in ANY map, no matter what... which shouldn't be the case....
for example, the difficulty of playing molecule in dolls.
etc

solution: learn how to code the source plugins for the game and help ZERO balance/remake the races

there, now was that so hard? :P

[CYBER]

solution: learn how to code the source plugins for the game and help ZERO balance/remake the races

there, now was that so hard? :P

I have already suggested that to him.
Zero is very cautious and likes to do all the coding himself so that he follows his own standards, which is perfectly understandable. If I had something good going I would not want other people fucking shit up, you know, if I had free time.

And besides, zero has had years and years of experience in optimizing this, I guess I get a bit Overwhelmed when thinking about how easy it is to fuck up smthn or not be as well rounded.

[Passarelli]

Molecule is one of the best races for CT on dolls. Just got to duck and weave and get to that bomb! It'd be easier if a smoke grenade wouldn't glitch in the house.

[CYBER]

Molecule is one of the best races for CT on dolls. Just got to duck and weave and get to that bomb! It'd be easier if a smoke grenade wouldn't glitch in the house.

Its less worse for CT than T...
But at the same time. Add 1 human camping in some fucked up corner in China, and has even the slightest vision if the bed and u wont be able to walk 2 steps without either getting bashed to death or having to pop ur shield...wasting precious tick toc time

And that molecule thing is only that gd to defuse that bomb... Unless u are camping in CT spawn or vents or t spawn and not doing ur objective..

I'm sure there are ways u can use molecule just like Athena and etc...
But u cannot tell me that it has the same luxury of life as a human... On any map.

[Wolfenstinger]

CT - Vagalion tele properly to defuse bomb on the ONLY BOMBSITE THAT MAP HAS TO OFFER

T - Vagalion Teles in properly to plant bomb on the ONLY BOMBSITE THAT MAP HAS TO OFFER to glitch it and plant infront of house instead

[Passarelli]

Wolf, anyone can glitch plant the bomb in front of the house so you know. You just have to stand in the correct location. That plant isn't even great to do since it makes it easier to get to the bomb as well as smoke it for cover. Not that anyone really covers their defuse with smoke on WCS, but you could do so.

[Wolfenstinger]

my point is that its the ONLY BOMBSITE THAT MAP HAS TO OFFER. At least the de_rats bathroom map offers a toilet or a towel to blow up.