Health Care Reform

[anex]

Got passed!!!

http://www.cnn.com/2010/POLITICS/03/21/health.care.main/index.html?hpt=T1

:party1: :party1: :party1: :party: :party: :party: :party1: :pals: :pals: :pals:
:trophy: :party1: :party1: :party1:

[THE HOLY SH**T!]

Got passed!!!


:party1: :party1: :party1: :party: :party: :party: :party1: :pals: :pals: :pals:
:trophy: :party1: :party1: :party1:

not in the consitution to make people pay for health care.

If people dont wanna pay for healthcare let them die if they cant afford the high price medical care.

Now look, if u make 20k a year, 450 pounds you will pay the same amount in insurrance that i will when im makeing 45k a year, am in healthy shape and have a desire to live.


thank you us for the "greatest nation" in the world.

[acolyte_to_jippity]

fuck
my
life

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91kdwxFsthI

[ManBearPig <ibis>]

WOOOT!!! Final fucking LY!

[XxMastagunzxX]

Fuck this healthcare bullshit and fuck you democrats in Washington.

[maynard]

God bless Canada and it's free medical.

[loka]

I don't care. And this has nothing to do with the democrat/republican spin considering a former Massachusetts republican governor passed a similar law that requires all Massachusetts residents to get health care or pay a fine. Problem is the republicans wanted different wording in the bill, and democrats didn't want to change it. This bill is also less congested with crap than the one Massachusetts has. So whatever.

[Andrew_Pavlik]

There goes all my tax money paying for your health care. GG Obama... Nothing I like more then paying for the people who cant take care of themselves to get a house(tax break) a car(clash for clunkers thats also taxable) and now healthcare, pretty soon the demo party will be the socialist party.

[ManBearPig <ibis>]

And i liked you cuz you were a Man U fan... too bad.

[Nemesis]

There goes all my tax money paying for your health care. GG Obama... Nothing I like more then paying for the people who cant take care of themselves to get a house(tax break) a car(clash for clunkers thats also taxable) and now healthcare, pretty soon the demo party will be the socialist party.

ya looks like they'll have to stop spending money on oppressing people around the world and actually care about their own citizens...

[StarsMine]

Im starting to wonder if we will ever get out of debt... :(

lets all move to china where there is actually smart business people... and money.

[loka]

We were out of debt. The Clinton years put a huge surplus. After a certain numb nuts took over, our deficit has plummeted. Many place blame on Obama. Problem is you can't place blame on someone where the cause of it was made with someone else long before he took over. It's just a quick way to blame someone.

[StarsMine]

We were out of debt. The Clinton years put a huge surplus. After a certain numb nuts took over, our deficit has plummeted. Many place blame on Obama. Problem is you can't place blame on someone where the cause of it was made with someone else long before he took over. It's just a quick way to blame someone.

Hey, I didnt blame Obama or Bush, Bush got a lot of crap he didnt deserve, he wasnt that bad of a president just blamed for a bunch of stuff he had no control over.

Obama, I dont blame him, just the people he surrounds himself with.

I have personally met both Bush and Obama (you dont have to believe me, but I have) as my dad worked in the white house for 3 years. Neither one of them was stupid.

[loka]

Obama is still in office, and Bush is still alive so I guess you mean neither one is stupid. You can't be stupid to run for office. It's the people you surround yourself with that make you look stupid ala Cheney to Bush, Clinton to Gore, Obama to Bidden. In essence, your vice president makes you look smart or retarded.

I'm pretty sure one of the reasons why republicans were against this bill (aside from not being able to edit some words) is because of morality in the whole paying for some girls abortion. Like I said, who cares. The fine for not having health care is around 1,000 while filing your taxes. it's up to people to enroll in it, and it's not given like fucking candy either.

[gas.]

not in the consitution to make people pay for health care.

If people dont wanna pay for healthcare let them die if they cant afford the high price medical care.

Now look, if u make 20k a year, 450 pounds you will pay the same amount in insurrance that i will when im makeing 45k a year, am in healthy shape and have a desire to live.


thank you us for the "greatest nation" in the world.
Not being in the Constitution does not mean it's unconstitutional. There are a lot of things we take for granted in today's United States that weren't in the Constitution either.

Being the only real industrialized nation without healthcare, especially one with the largest GDP, says a staggering amount. We could easily pay for a lot of the stuff we should have and move towards a surplus budge, but the moment Americans here the word "tax" their asshole shrivels up. We're one of the what, three or four least taxed first-world countries?

[gas.]

Im starting to wonder if we will ever get out of debt... :(

lets all move to china where there is actually smart business people... and money.
I don't think you know much about China if you state this. Yes, move to China where if you say a single thing wrong about the current government they will waltz in and rip that corporation you built right out of your hands. Oh yeah, and leave you with absolutely nothing.. if they don't throw you in jail.

Edit:

There goes all my tax money paying for your health care. GG Obama... Nothing I like more then paying for the people who cant take care of themselves to get a house(tax break) a car(clash for clunkers thats also taxable) and now healthcare, pretty soon the demo party will be the socialist party.
So logically, you must be against school tax? Hey, there are private schools for parents, it's not your fault they can't afford it, right?

[Kavinsky]

From the bbc:
The bill was passed by 219 votes to 212, with NO Republican backing
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8579322.stm

So much for the checks and balances system.
Makes you wonder how many of them are going to be kicked out of the senate come this november.

[Curdy]

Intresting, I didn't think it was even possible.

[Rage]

I think ima move to canada, if only i wasn't a criminal X(

[Clone]

God bless Canada and it's free medical.

I agree with maynard!

http://www.fas.usda.gov/agexport/Flags/canada%20flag.gif

:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

Clone

[A Baby Panda]

I think ima move to canada, if only i wasn't a criminal X(

I dont understand how this would help your cause at all.

[mag36]

well i was totally again that health care plan. Tennessee has TennCare, a free medical for the poor,was 5 time better then that bill and now TennCare will be taken away. And even then TennCare was shit.

By bro had to wait a week waiting list to have his knee check out on a football injury, but on my dads health care they could see him the very next day.

Anything government in the US takes forever. And I can see this not being good at all.

[Ren]

For the record, I'm conservative on nearly every single other issue. If that carries any weight.

But I'm getting tired of hearing people--young, healthy people, mind you--stand up and talk about how the healthcare bill is bullshit because they have to pay for people who are sickly and it's probably their own fault, blah blah blah. Live a few more years and you'll be singing a different tune when your child gets a chronic illness or you find yourself succumbing to the natural physical degradation of old age...

Sure, sometimes it's people's own fault they're sick. But personally, I would've rather stayed with my family and everything I've ever known in Florida, but I had to immigrate THIS way because we couldn't fucking afford to because of some RANDOM disease that picks RANDOM kids and kills their pancreases. Pre-exiting condition, HUGE deductables, FUCK juvenile diabetes!

Okay, I'm done.

(You know what the funny part is? I bet my parents are against the bill.)

[-=NYS=- C.O.]

Are you fuckin kidding me ? Do i have to wait with the rest of these welfare saps in the hospital now ? Go fuck yourself Obama.

[Curdy]

Whats wrong with the steps towards socialized medicine? In the end it better serves the people in the end.

[-=NYS=- C.O.]

Whats wrong with the steps towards socialized medicine? In the end it better serves the people in the end.

Shut Up Redcoat.

[Holy-Sonic]

Got passed!!!




Like I told Walter, Anex how do you have anything to do with it, just = more money for the rest of us to pay, BIATCH:plzdie::stupid:

[Curdy]

Shut Up Redcoat.

(Sigh)

Such a child...

[Spasm]

Sorry but I think it should not have been passed at all... The taxes to the middle class and small businesses is down right ridiculus. Now a small business owner that makes more then 250k a year now has to supply health care to his employees period dot. Do you realise how much money that is going to cost that small business, do you know how many people he will lay off because he cannot afford for them to work for him? Some small business give out health insurance to their employees but after they have been working there for so long, this bill requires it immediate upon hiring. So add this to all the other taxes that a business has to pay for and it makes making a business that much harder.

Do you like giving your money away? Thats basically what this bill is. The rich pay for the poors healthcare, hell the rich pay for the majority of all the tax money in the US. I'm sorry but the spread the wealth mentality is so.. un American. If I get a degree and a great job, I don't want half my money going to a family thats life is nothing short of drugs and crime. Or to illegals that come into this country using our emergency rooms. What did they do to earn it? Healthcare is not an inalienable right.

The only side of this that I happen to agree with is the fact of insurance companies denying people because of pre-existing conditions, BUT I tihnk that if our healthcare did not have the governments hands in it so much, regulating what insurance companies have to offer, our healthcare would be so much cheaper. Go look at other countries too, espcially the ones with universal care. Sorry grandma we can't afford to operate, your heart attack is natural, its how people die.

And no, I am not saying Bush was a great president, hell he got the ball rolling on those bailouts, which should have NEVER happened. No business is too big to fail. Hell wallgreens in washington is starting to deny medicad for percriptions because they are losing money. Now what happens if the government forces them to accept it, and giving this congresses past record the will. Thats right, eventually wallgreens will amass alot of debt, which in turn means they will start to go bankrupt.. and then they will need a bailout. Isn't government owned private sector the way to go?

[Curdy]

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You dont see this in Europe.

[Andrew_Pavlik]

Curdy my fiance's cousin is a nurse in london and she will be the first one to tell you that the way they do healthcare over there is bad. She says they run out of everything all the time, they have kick people out a lot earlier then they feel comfortable just make room for new people and she says sometimes when you talk to people who get out of surgery they tell you they have been waiting months for it.

Thats what I want, an under supplied, revolving door and a long wait at my hospital. And thats exactly what US hospitals will turn into.


So logically, you must be against school tax? Hey, there are private schools for parents, it's not your fault they can't afford it, right?

Every child deserves an education, maybe not necessarily a private one. However not everyone deserves a new car(aka cask for clunkers)

[gas.]

Snip.
1. The rich pay the majority of tax because they make and have the majority of the money. You see, taxes are based on percentages.
2. The middle class's taxes are still among the lowest in first world nations.


Every child deserves an education, maybe not necessarily a private one. However not everyone deserves a new car(aka cask for clunkers)
Every person deserves an education, yet that same person isn't deserving of a healthy life unless they can afford the ever growing costs while wages are continually cut? The health of the citizens should be a pillar of a society, just as education and safety are. Though it is funny that no one has issue with federal/state/local controlled fire and police departments, nor public schools -- it is only health care. These are the three most important fundamentals of a society, it is the very reason why villages became towns and in turn became cities. To claim one is poor policy while standing by the others is hypocritical and blatant selfishness.

[Curdy]

Curdy my fiance's cousin is a nurse in london and she will be the first one to tell you that the way they do healthcare over there is bad. She says they run out of everything all the time, they have kick people out a lot earlier then they feel comfortable just make room for new people and she says sometimes when you talk to people who get out of surgery they tell you they have been waiting months for it.

Thats what I want, an under supplied, revolving door and a long wait at my hospital. And thats exactly what US hospitals will turn into.



Every child deserves an education, maybe not necessarily a private one. However not everyone deserves a new car(aka cask for clunkers)

Sure are system is not perfect either

But

The vast majority of our population stays healthy, this means a healthy population can work more.

Also everywhere in the world services such as the police are socialized they have a mandate to protect and serve the people, doctors have the same mandate to protect life and serve the people.

In the end your health care benifits those who can afford it.

[Kavinsky]

As my 76 year old father always says about goverment control....


They'd find a way to screw up a steel ball!

[Andrew_Pavlik]

Also everywhere in the world services such as the police are socialized they have a mandate to protect and serve the people, doctors have the same mandate to protect life and serve the people.

In the end your health care benifits those who can afford it.

You may not know this but regardless of my financial situation or insurance, If I was dying and went to the hospital, they would have to help me not matter if I could pay for it or not.


Every person deserves an education, yet that same person isn't deserving of a healthy life unless they can afford the ever growing costs while wages are continually cut? The health of the citizens should be a pillar of a society, just as education and safety are. Though it is funny that no one has issue with federal/state/local controlled fire and police departments, nor public schools -- it is only health care. These are the three most important fundamentals of a society, it is the very reason why villages became towns and in turn became cities. To claim one is poor policy while standing by the others is hypocritical and blatant selfishness.

Doesn't mean everyone will be healthier, sure it might lead some people to live healthier lives but just like the way it's always worked in america it most likely means that people can continue to eat till they have a heart attack or the people who refuse to wear things like helmets or seatbelts, it just means now that I am paying for people who don't care about themselves enough to take care of them to get treatment.

[Curdy]

You may not know this but regardless of my financial situation or insurance, If I was dying and went to the hospital, they would have to help me not matter if I could pay for it or not.

They would only help you if you where near death, is that really worth a risk.
But im sure the ambulance would still charge you regardless.

[Vladninja]

Thanks to the health care reform passing I am now aware of just how ignorant so many of my friends truly are... I am so glad you guys are dreamers but pissed that I will have to listen to you all whine, piss, and moan as the government takes more and more of every ones money (but hey the government has demonstrated so many times over that they are completely responsible with our money and have nothing but our best interest at heart :::sarcasm::: ). You would think that history would have taught you mindless sheep something but obviously not.

Oh and FYI for those of you that are like "Poor me I need this surgery or that procedure to help save my life cause I was born with a heart condition (or insert other bleeding heart story) and its not my fault at least now I can be a normal person..." HAHAHAHAHAHAH you are so stupid.... have you been to the DMV?

Well guess what that's now what our health care is going to be like. You will wait in a never ending line of stupidity and red tape till you die giving all your money to a government that will let you die before they spend their (that's right cause they took it... it theirs now not yours) money on that procedure. Oh and don't get old cause once you get old forget about it your definitely dead. You should also be aware the government will not allow lifesaving medicine if it cost to much. Sure the alternative medicines wont work as well but its cheaper.

Again don't worry the government would never take short cuts or do something not in your best interest. I have a Canadian friend (CUJO) who has told me countless horror story about what happens when the government takes over with health care for all.

People should be cared for....and have been for years. Why should the government be involved in it? And how is it their right to say its against the law for me to not have health insurance? If I don't have it who's problems is it? MINE! I have been seriously sick once in the last 5 years and guess who paid for it.... I did. I paid $160 cash out of pocket to physicians care... now I will be paying hundreds a year. Wonderful.

I am not heartless but the truth is you cannot be denied medical care for serious injuries in this country and in the state of Tennessee if a mother gets pregnant and can not afford the pregnancy the state will pick up the bill (trust me I know I went through it with my x girlfriend). We already pay taxes to help those in desperate need. They already take now the greedy bastards are just setting things up to take more.

Don't be sold a bill of goods.... Look into this deeper read between the lines... I'm not heartless but I'm not going to work my ass off twice as hard as the next guy just to give him half of what I make because hes less fortunate. If that makes me a fat capitalist pig so be it. I busted my ass for the things I have... and I cant stand people that expect fucking handouts. I work with people who claim to be poor and get money from the government and handouts like food stamps... these are the same jack ass's that go out every weekend partying(which last I checked isn't free). While I stay home and save my money. They need food stamps because they blow all their money on shit like illegal drugs, cigarettes, and liquor... all of which negatively affect the body so when they get sick, need a new liver, lungs, or etc... who pays the bill? I do! And please don't be fooled for a second into thinking this bill will change that.

Why do I live in a country where I am penalized for being smart and responsible while others prosper from being wastes of space? This shit is just like the damn seat belt laws. If you wanna drive without a seat belt and risk getting killed how is it any of the governments fucking business to step in and say "No you HAVE TO BE SAFE"? Who am I hurting but myself.... Obama get the fuck out of my business and the fuck out of my wallet.

If you don't believe or agree with this rant please spare your self the time of arguing unless you have something intelligent to say... or better yet just don't waste your time. Time will let us all learn together if this was the right thing or not. I'm just tired of being right on these issues... for once in my life I would love to be wrong but its not likely.

[Holy-Sonic]

1. Kill the president
2. Kill Vice Pres
3. Kill Representive of the house
4. MAKE John McCain or Hilary Pres.
5. Prob done!

[THE HOLY SH**T!]

1. Kill the president
2. Kill Vice Pres
3. Kill Representive of the house
4. MAKE John McCain or Hilary Pres.
5. Prob done!



[---------Horse---------child-------------teenager------------collegegrad---------senior citizen]

were you belong. ^

[uuntiltheendd]

wow +1 to vlad.
@sonic:doesnt matter who you kill. different puppets, same evil.

[OMGBEARS]

fuck
my
life

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91kdwxFsthI

The Soviet National Anthem is SUCH a beautiful piece of music.


1. Kill the president
2. Kill Vice Pres
3. Kill Representive of the house
4. MAKE John McCain or Hilary Pres.
5. Prob done!

Hillary wants a single payer system. I think you're mistaken in this list.

I'll make a bigger post later, but this is all I'll say for now:

This there is no public option. This is essentially a mandate that all Americans must purchase health care. Subsidies will generally be issued in the form of a tax credit rather than an outright payment via government sources. Yada yada yada. If you want to make comments on health care, read a bit before you make mindless comments.

The United States has the largest wealth and at the same time, one of the lowest life expectancies out of any first world country. It's generally safe to correlate life expectancy to quality of health care.

We have wasted over 800 billion dollars in Afghanistan and Iraq in the last 8 years on two wars that haven't made us any safer on the world stage (in before "YES THEY HAVE"). Point being: if there is always money for war, then why is there never money for our national well-being?

Again, longer post later.

[Kavinsky]

OMGBEARS I just don't trust these motherfuckers, it makes me nervous that the checks and balances system in the senate thats supposed to prevent a one sided goverment from forming has failed and NONE of us know the specifics of the modifications to healthcare system in those 2000 pages, we only know of its generalizations.

On a side note: acolyte_to_jippity you gotta stick with the classics!

yu2NqfISm9k

[acolyte_to_jippity]

On a side note: acolyte_to_jippity you gotta stick with the classics!



dumbass, i was referencing the communism developing in america now.

[Kavinsky]

On take a joke, I was referencing nazism and the start of a one party system and how well it worked out for germany, which was more or less the forerunner to communism.

[OMGBEARS]

OMGBEARS I just don't trust these motherfuckers, it makes me nervous that the checks and balances system in the senate thats supposed to prevent a one sided goverment from forming has failed and NONE of us know the specifics of the modifications to healthcare system in those 2000 pages, we only know of its generalizations.

Have you seen the debate on health care? It'd definitely a two sided argument. Republicans who are all "no" and (most) democrats who are all "yes." Bipartisanship is out due to republicans making militants of their base by demonizing anything pushed by democrats and progressives. If they even think about voting with democrats their base will simply find someone else. However, this isn't simply a republican problem, now it's become a problem for all of us.


dumbass, i was referencing the communism developing in america now.

According to this poll (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/april_2009/just_53_say_capitalism_better_than_socialism) 20% of Americans prefer Socialism to Capitalism, 53% of Americans outright prefer capitalism of Socialism, and 27% of Americans are unsure. This is after taking into consideration that Americans under 30, of which 37% prefer capitalism, 33% socialism, and 30% are undecided, you begin to see a trend: there is a paradigm shift about to happen in American within the next 25 years. I have no doubt that there will be a socialist movement in America to replace the free-market way of thinking in our lifetimes.

[anex]

dumbass, i was referencing the communism developing in america now.

Communism oh NO! Quick Acolyte, we must get to the cave of Justice and get our Democracy capes so we can stop this vile injustice of the American people! Communism NOOO!! Then all the rich people would lose their millions of dollars and instead of spending money on themselves they would have to spend it on the welfare of other people. Evil vile!

China tried Communism and they...... well..... China....
....
...
..
.... Well China owns us.

[Andrew_Pavlik]

Omgbears that poll just goes to show that most americans have no real idea what Communism really is, sure everyones equal, fair for all etc etc... sounds good on paper but could never work in society and you wanna know why? For it to work everything needs to be perfect but since nothing ever is and people are and always will be corrupt communism is one of the worse formats of gov't.

Anex... really? I am pretty sure on that post alone shows me you honestly have no idea what your talking about, sure china as a country itself is rich, but why don't you go take a trip over there and make a legit argument that they are better off.



Originally Posted by Holy-Sonic
1. Kill the president
2. Kill Vice Pres
3. Kill Representive of the house
4. MAKE John McCain or Hilary Pres.
5. Prob done!


[---------Horse---------child-------------teenager------------collegegrad---------senior citizen]

were you belong. ^

while I don't like the president, I think it's dumb when people bring up killing him as the answer. Well put holy

[anex]

Anex... really? I am pretty sure on that post alone shows me you honestly have no idea what your talking about, sure china as a country itself is rich, but why don't you go take a trip over there and make a legit argument that they are better off.

What, you don't mean Communism isn't puppies, rainbows and unicorns spread over the horizon in a wonderful beach oasis? DAMNIT Karl Marx lied to me!

I was just kind of making fun because of the "Communism" scare we had back in WW2. Obama = Socialized Health Care. Socialized Health Care = Communism. Therefore Obama = Communist. OMG They are back!!

[Spasm]

The Soviet National Anthem is SUCH a beautiful piece of music.



Hillary wants a single payer system. I think you're mistaken in this list.

I'll make a bigger post later, but this is all I'll say for now:

This there is no public option. This is essentially a mandate that all Americans must purchase health care. Subsidies will generally be issued in the form of a tax credit rather than an outright payment via government sources. Yada yada yada. If you want to make comments on health care, read a bit before you make mindless comments.

The United States has the largest wealth and at the same time, one of the lowest life expectancies out of any first world country. It's generally safe to correlate life expectancy to quality of health care.

We have wasted over 800 billion dollars in Afghanistan and Iraq in the last 8 years on two wars that haven't made us any safer on the world stage (in before "YES THEY HAVE"). Point being: if there is always money for war, then why is there never money for our national well-being?

Again, longer post later.

There is no public option YET. This bill is not exactly what the preident wanted but it will get the job done, mark my words unless this bill gets repealed we WILL have public option before long. He has not mandated insurance costs yet be he will have to, because of all these mandates on insurance companies they will have to raise prices just to stay in business. Me personally, I am not really for the wars, but President Obama sure is for the one in Afghanistan. Oh wait you don't really hear that much, but he keeps sending more troops over there.

"The United States has the largest wealth and at the same time, one of the lowest life expectancies out of any first world country. It's generally safe to correlate life expectancy to quality of health care."
-- We are 11.4 Trillion in debt, I am pretty sure we aren't wealthy.
-- Why do people from these nationalized healthcare countries come to our country in seek of medical help?

The big issue to me is that our country was founded on strong state power and weak federal power. Every day the federal government is taking control of more aspects of this country. Which makes me wonder if anyone has heard of the state sovereignty movement.

* Tenth Amendment – Powers of States and people.

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

The founding fathers believed in a balance between state and federal power. This state sovereignty movement clearly arises from the belief that the balance of power has tilted too far and for too long in the direction of the federal government and that it’s time to restore that lose balance.

[acolyte_to_jippity]

that's kinda the republican party's view

[Spasm]

Have you seen the debate on health care? It'd definitely a two sided argument. Republicans who are all "no" and (most) democrats who are all "yes." Bipartisanship is out due to republicans making militants of their base by demonizing anything pushed by democrats and progressives. If they even think about voting with democrats their base will simply find someone else. However, this isn't simply a republican problem, now it's become a problem for all of us.



According to this poll (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/april_2009/just_53_say_capitalism_better_than_socialism) 20% of Americans prefer Socialism to Capitalism, 53% of Americans outright prefer capitalism of Socialism, and 27% of Americans are unsure. This is after taking into consideration that Americans under 30, of which 37% prefer capitalism, 33% socialism, and 30% are undecided, you begin to see a trend: there is a paradigm shift about to happen in American within the next 25 years. I have no doubt that there will be a socialist movement in America to replace the free-market way of thinking in our lifetimes.

The reason why people under 30 believe this way is because from the day you are put into the school system, you are getting brainwashed by leftist teachers. Its hard not to be that way when all your taught for the first 20 years or so of your life is that you don't earn things, people owe it to you. You should listen to some of the lectures my leftist college professors give, it is downright sad. Hell one of my professors is literally worshipping Al Gore every class, and if I dare oppose I will suffer with lower grades just because of my views

[Vladninja]

The reason why people under 30 believe this way is because from the day you are put into the school system, you are getting brainwashed by leftist teachers. Its hard not to be that way when all your taught for the first 20 years or so of your life is that you don't earn things, people owe it to you. You should listen to some of the lectures my leftist college professors give, it is downright sad. Hell one of my professors is literally worshipping Al Gore every class, and if I dare oppose I will suffer with lower grades just because of my views

+1
I couldn't agree more.... I once had an economics teacher who was very very into communism.
Needless to say I had to drop the class before my big mouth got me a failing grade.
I took the class the very next semester from a less biased professor and got an A in the class.

[OMGBEARS]

Spasm, you don't seem to realize that countries aren't like people -- they can go into debt and do deficit spending. People die, and countries are a wee bit more stable. Per capita, we are the richest nation in the world with the highest GDP in the world, as well. Debt or no, we still control the most wealth.

On the flip side, Spasm, you speak as there is some sort of purely "leftist" attitude pervading in the schools. I agree to an extent that our schools have gotten more and more liberal over the years, I hold to the idea that every hundred generations or so there is a shift in thought. Conservative thought is a stance of the last thousand years or so. The privileged get the whole pie and every one else is relegated to what they can manage. For me, this isn't right. It isn't how things should go down in my book. Every human being is deserving of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Just because they were born underprivileged doesn't mean they should be constrained to that. Society benefits the most when the poorest of us are afforded the most charity.

No president has done more to expand executive power (and the federal government with it) and to increase government spending than Bush. Putting us into two wars and wasting over 700 billion dollars in those theaters alone (not withstanding tax cuts and the like) was no small feat. Sure, Obama has supported the war in Afghanistan, at least we had a reason to go in there, however shortsighted we may have been at the time. There was no legitimate reason to go into Iraq. Republicans wanted 40,000 troops for a surge in Afghanistan, Obama sent 30,000. Again, Obama is attempting to solve three wars, a recession, as well as handle a heavily polarized house and senate due to Republican fear mongering.

Socialism isn't wrong, it's simply a different set of values. If I would think that my values were the only way to live then I would be an idiot. Capitalism isn't wrong, it's simply a different set of values. If you were to think your values were the only way to live then you would be an idiot. I know many more Capitalist idiots in this world than Socialist ones. Don't get me wrong, both sides have them, but as far as one being right or wrong? It's the majorities call on that one.

[loka]

The reason why people under 30 believe this way is because from the day you are put into the school system, you are getting brainwashed by leftist teachers. Its hard not to be that way when all your taught for the first 20 years or so of your life is that you don't earn things, people owe it to you. You should listen to some of the lectures my leftist college professors give, it is downright sad. Hell one of my professors is literally worshipping Al Gore every class, and if I dare oppose I will suffer with lower grades just because of my views

Not true. Especially after arguing heavily with this idiot who thought he knew about leftist shit. Back during the 50s with McCarthyism, college professors were especially paranoid to get pinned for being a "communist" based on their job description -THINKING. A majority of teachers and professors are thinkers. Explanation is they think for a living and you don't. Explanation is they have far more liberal thinking than the average person who does not divulge their life into books and shit. If you ever actually tried to argue with a professor, they will give you the benefit of the doubt by citing books and information. If your basing shit based on your own personal views, they will laugh at you. They are intellectuals and if your going to argue with them, get on their level of intellectualism. Otherwise, everything that I have learned from my professors have been cut dry. I've erased meaningless literature classes, and economic class lectures because a lecture is an idea of sorts coming from the professor, NOT from the actual information being divulged in the readings and texts. The point of college is to challenge your mind and the professor, not actually take everything from the professor as truth. As I told the other person who shut up with this point... I took the time to dissect all the information that was given to me by the professor, cite sources to contradict, and get good marks because I showed my intellectualism with someone of the same standard. If your that lazy of a student, then college admissions is getting too easy for idiots to get into.


There was no legitimate reason to go into Iraq. Republicans wanted 40,000 troops for a surge in Afghanistan, Obama sent 30,000. Again, Obama is attempting to solve three wars, a recession, as well as handle a heavily polarized house and senate due to Republican fear mongering.


If you talk to most soldiers who have been in Iraq, they will tell you there was absolutely no reason for them to start up in Iraq, and their focus should have been in Afghanistan. Are they proud to serve their country regardless? Of course, but they definitely disagreed with the actions taken to send all the man power to Iraq, and leave Afghanistan to a small amount of troops from all four branches. Now they are even more pissed off because Iraq is in disarray from poor execution and poor misguided intel and the country that should have been attacked (Afghanistan) is just now starting to get priority when it should have gotten immediate priority in 2003.

[Kavinsky]

Yeash you know the simplest way to put it is to use an old term, I'm a strict anti federalist.
Yes its not a perfect idea in this world but its certainly better than letting the goverment control everything.

I mean after all the last thing you want for anything is for someone with no interest in it to take it over and run it into the ground.


Which exactly is what the secretary of the treasury did with the banks, he told them to give morgages to people who couldnt possibly pay them back in the first place let alone with the interest rates tacked on and suprise suprise that backfired

God only knows whats going to happen next, but one things becoming more and more apparent both of these parties can't run the country for shit.

[gas.]

According to this poll (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/april_2009/just_53_say_capitalism_better_than_socialism) 20% of Americans prefer Socialism to Capitalism, 53% of Americans outright prefer capitalism of Socialism, and 27% of Americans are unsure. This is after taking into consideration that Americans under 30, of which 37% prefer capitalism, 33% socialism, and 30% are undecided, you begin to see a trend: there is a paradigm shift about to happen in American within the next 25 years. I have no doubt that there will be a socialist movement in America to replace the free-market way of thinking in our lifetimes.
I'd venture to guess that 70% of Americans don't even know what socialism actually entails, outside of whatever political pundits their idiocy leads them to follow.

These same people have no issue with their ability to call 911 for an emergency instead of a third-party company, as would happen in a true capitalist state. They also likely have no qualms about their option to send their children to a state/federally funded school or the fact that they'll pay taxes for said schools regardless to whether or not their children enroll there. Schools are the best parallel to a public option of health care as their should be a private option for those who want to pay more for preferred treatment. We're not even digging into the libraries, post office, road works, public works, etc.

Notice the inconsistencies? Every socialist style program implemented in this country was met with strong resistance at first, yet once the fruits of the endeavour come to light, it is generally regarded as the best option. Screaming out "socialism" or "communism" against something is nothing more than 70's style scare tactics as we've enough programs in today's society that fit that definition that it takes a generally uneducated person to point their finger at just one instance and disregard the others.

So you're required to own health insurance or get fined? Auto-insurance is required as well.. where is the anger directed at this? It's not so much to protect you, the driver, but the other drivers on the road as well as you'd likely not be able to afford the costs to the other vehicle's driver in an accident. Much like you having to pay into your own insurance in case something happens to you and it not being completely at the cost of other people's expense. We're already paying for other people's health care. Preventative care cuts costs. What is cheaper, paying for someone to go to the doctor when he has the sniffles or taking on the cost of his pneumonia treatment?

Though, I do think a private option should be available to people.

[Spasm]

"These same people have no issue with their ability to call 911 for an emergency instead of a third-party company, as would happen in a true capitalist state. They also likely have no qualms about their option to send their children to a state/federally funded school or the fact that they'll pay taxes for said schools regardless to whether or not their children enroll there. Schools are the best parallel to a public option of health care as their should be a private option for those who want to pay more for preferred treatment. We're not even digging into the libraries, post office, road works, public works, etc."

-- Actually I am for a capitalist school system. It would work wonders over our union based school system. It would actually bring competition into our education system which would improve the overall quality of our education. USPS is posting loss 7 billion last year alone (source http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/losing-money-isnt-the-u-s-postal-services-only-problem/19379758/ Almost everything you have mentioned is failing. It WOULD be better under a pure capitalist society.

"Notice the inconsistencies? Every socialist style program implemented in this country was met with strong resistance at first, yet once the fruits of the endeavour come to light, it is generally regarded as the best option. Screaming out "socialism" or "communism" against something is nothing more than 70's style scare tactics as we've enough programs in today's society that fit that definition that it takes a generally uneducated person to point their finger at just one instance and disregard the others."

-- This is the reason why this great country is in the debt it is in. We get all these programs that we do not need. It makes more people feed off the system. Of course people are going to like it, who doesn't like "free" shit.

"Though, I do think a private option should be available to people. "

-- Won't happen, the government will put so much regulation on the insurnace companies that they will not even be able to stand a chance against a public option. I read today that insurance rates are expected to go up 200 to 300 percent just because of this bill.

"Not true. Especially after arguing heavily with this idiot who thought he knew about leftist shit. Back during the 50s with McCarthyism, college professors were especially paranoid to get pinned for being a "communist" based on their job description -THINKING. A majority of teachers and professors are thinkers. Explanation is they think for a living and you don't. Explanation is they have far more liberal thinking than the average person who does not divulge their life into books and shit. If you ever actually tried to argue with a professor, they will give you the benefit of the doubt by citing books and information. If your basing shit based on your own personal views, they will laugh at you. They are intellectuals and if your going to argue with them, get on their level of intellectualism. Otherwise, everything that I have learned from my professors have been cut dry. I've erased meaningless literature classes, and economic class lectures because a lecture is an idea of sorts coming from the professor, NOT from the actual information being divulged in the readings and texts. The point of college is to challenge your mind and the professor, not actually take everything from the professor as truth. As I told the other person who shut up with this point... I took the time to dissect all the information that was given to me by the professor, cite sources to contradict, and get good marks because I showed my intellectualism with someone of the same standard. If your that lazy of a student, then college admissions is getting too easy for idiots to get into."

-- Have you ever read about how the communist party came to power in the USSR? Communism is thought by the educated populas before it was implemented as the greatest social structure ever thought of.

-- And just for your information I have argued with professors citing several sources in a paper, which in turn resulted in me failing the course. They did not care. Don't assume your correct without experiencing it first.

[loka]

I'd venture to guess that 70% of Americans don't even know what socialism actually entails, outside of whatever political pundits their idiocy leads them to follow.

These same people have no issue with their ability to call 911 for an emergency instead of a third-party company, as would happen in a true capitalist state. They also likely have no qualms about their option to send their children to a state/federally funded school or the fact that they'll pay taxes for said schools regardless to whether or not their children enroll there. Schools are the best parallel to a public option of health care as their should be a private option for those who want to pay more for preferred treatment. We're not even digging into the libraries, post office, road works, public works, etc.

Notice the inconsistencies? Every socialist style program implemented in this country was met with strong resistance at first, yet once the fruits of the endeavour come to light, it is generally regarded as the best option. Screaming out "socialism" or "communism" against something is nothing more than 70's style scare tactics as we've enough programs in today's society that fit that definition that it takes a generally uneducated person to point their finger at just one instance and disregard the others.

So you're required to own health insurance or get fined? Auto-insurance is required as well.. where is the anger directed at this? It's not so much to protect you, the driver, but the other drivers on the road as well as you'd likely not be able to afford the costs to the other vehicle's driver in an accident. Much like you having to pay into your own insurance in case something happens to you and it not being completely at the cost of other people's expense. We're already paying for other people's health care. Preventative care cuts costs. What is cheaper, paying for someone to go to the doctor when he has the sniffles or taking on the cost of his pneumonia treatment?

Though, I do think a private option should be available to people.

I still don't have health insurance, and I'm very healthy. If i don't get it by April 1st, I will get fined by both federal and state 1,000 each I believe when I do my income taxes for 2010. If I decide to get health insurance once I get hurt or a serious problem occurs... I will get denied the most premium of coverage and get limited coverage. We pay for the health care of prisoners. Honestly, why? Why do we even feed them? Because the constitution and the bill of rights comes into play. So this is why whomever mentioned the constitution needs to learn what exactly the constitution and the bill of rights entails, and where exactly your money is going into.

[loka]

-- And just for your information I have argued with professors citing several sources in a paper, which in turn resulted in me failing the course. They did not care. Don't assume your correct without experiencing it first.


I haven't "assumed" anything dude. I have 2 college degrees, and made dean's list by what I said. Maybe your professors are really just as retarded.

[gas.]

-- Actually I am for a capitalist school system. It would work wonders over our union based school system. It would actually bring competition into our education system which would improve the overall quality of our education. USPS is posting loss 7 billion last year alone (source http://www.dailyfinance.com/story/losing-money-isnt-the-u-s-postal-services-only-problem/19379758/ Almost everything you have mentioned is failing. It WOULD be better under a pure capitalist society.
The Post Office isn't failing because of any other issue than people don't send physical mail anymore. This isn't as if they're hemorrhaging money based on poor service or poor management. With any economic downturn, mail gets scaled back by users. Claiming this is a fault of the Post Office is rather unsubstantiated, if nothing other than an attempt to claim the system doesn't work.

Capitalist school systems would be a nightmare and would boil down to the same exact situation health care falls under: Those with money can afford the good schools and those without get stuck with some shitty schools. This is unacceptable. With this, no standardized curriculum and schools focusing on financial bottom line rather than educational ones.. this is shortsighted. I'm a libertarian and even I can see the shortcomings of a purely open market. It's simply unattainable as long as human nature's greed is involved.

The main issue facing public schools are the unions (like every other industry), not the system itself.


-- This is the reason why this great country is in the debt it is in. We get all these programs that we do not need. It makes more people feed off the system. Of course people are going to like it, who doesn't like "free" shit.
Hardly. These systems make up a very small percentage of the nation's budget. The real reason we're in debt is our continually overspending of military. How many years have we built vehicles that could no longer serve a purpose due to how future and current wars are fought? Instead you'd rather people starve off the system? Sounds like a plan. There simply aren't enough jobs to accommodate everyone having health care.


Though, I do think a private option should be available to people.
-- Won't happen, the government will put so much regulation on the insurnace companies that they will not even be able to stand a chance against a public option. I read today that insurance rates are expected to go up 200 to 300 percent just because of this bill.
[/quote]
Yes, just like private schools, FedEx and UPS have failed against the public option.. Right? This is pundit regurgitating.

Sure, premiums will go up (see how easily people can twist the facts?) but you'll get much more in return in ways of full coverage and better co-pays. Spending less for shitty coverage versus, spending double and getting much, much more? That's simple mathematics. With this bill you can actually shop around for better rates in a centralized hub -- how's that for capitalism at work?

[gas.]

I still don't have health insurance, and I'm very healthy. If i don't get it by April 1st, I will get fined by both federal and state 1,000 each I believe when I do my income taxes for 2010. If I decide to get health insurance once I get hurt or a serious problem occurs... I will get denied the most premium of coverage and get limited coverage.
You obviously haven't read anything involving this bill or are just repeating what nonsense is being said on cable news.

I suggest you read up:
http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/2010/03/24/20100324biz-HealthTaxes0324.html

[loka]

You obviously haven't read anything involving this bill or are just repeating what nonsense is being said on cable news.

I suggest you read up:
http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles/2010/03/24/20100324biz-HealthTaxes0324.html

My state will not employ the health bill that was recently passed considering we already have our own health care law. It is a lower standard version of what they just recently passed. So no, I will still get fined by my state 1,000 for not having medical insurance by April.

[Vladninja]

My state will not employ the health bill that was recently passed considering we already have our own health care law. It is a lower standard version of what they just recently passed. So no, I will still get fined by my state 1,000 for not having medical insurance by April.
"My state will not employ the health bill that was recently passed considering we already have our own health care law."

Wait you think your state law can override federal law? HAHAHA... or am I missing something... If thats really what you think is gonna happen you should talk to California bout marijuana legalization.

[THE HOLY SH**T!]

"My state will not employ the health bill that was recently passed considering we already have our own health care law."

Wait you think your state law can override federal law? HAHAHA... or am I missing something... If thats really what you think is gonna happen you should talk to California bout marijuana legalization.

+1

State laws are below FEDERAL laws.


So enjoy paying more taxes !

[loka]

Federal laws overpower state laws only if they conflict each other. The marijuana law that California has conflicts the federal law. The Massachusetts health law is equivalent to the federal bill, so the only thing that is going to happen is whether or not Massachusetts lawmakers want to make provisions to update it or keep it the way it is. This is also like gay marriage and the 6 or 7 states that have it legal. The court cannot say it is illegal since there is no federal law to conflict it. This is why back when Scott Brown was elected senator, he made a big deal about going against the health care bill despite Massachusetts not caring about this only in the interest of spending money.

http://www.berkshireeagle.com/ci_14736069

[gas.]

My state will not employ the health bill that was recently passed considering we already have our own health care law. It is a lower standard version of what they just recently passed. So no, I will still get fined by my state 1,000 for not having medical insurance by April.
Take that up with your state, not this bill. You stated you'd get fined $1,000 from both, which is false. You won't be fined federally until 2014, in which you'll get taxed at most 1% of your income or $95, whichever is more. If you're making $100,000, you won't notice another grand.

[StarsMine]

Take that up with your state, not this bill. You stated you'd get fined $1,000 from both, which is false. You won't be fined federally until 2014, in which you'll get taxed at most 1% of your income or $95, whichever is more. If you're making $100,000, you won't notice another grand.

Shit. If i become independent, I dont want to pay that. I only make 3k a year :/

[Kavinsky]

God this whole vile buissness is making me sick.

[acolyte_to_jippity]

God this whole vile buissness is making me sick.

goddamnit kav! now i have to pay for that!

[Rage]

I dont understand how this would help your cause at all.

rofl im not actually a criminal, just pending a stupid charge. But seeing as I live RIGHT ON the canadian border it wouldn't be anything for me to move there, pay higher taxes, but have free medical instead of being forced to pay for something I don't want.

Now you all can see why im a republican, and fucking hate Obama.

[Spasm]

The Post Office isn't failing because of any other issue than people don't send physical mail anymore. This isn't as if they're hemorrhaging money based on poor service or poor management. With any economic downturn, mail gets scaled back by users. Claiming this is a fault of the Post Office is rather unsubstantiated, if nothing other than an attempt to claim the system doesn't work.

Capitalist school systems would be a nightmare and would boil down to the same exact situation health care falls under: Those with money can afford the good schools and those without get stuck with some shitty schools. This is unacceptable. With this, no standardized curriculum and schools focusing on financial bottom line rather than educational ones.. this is shortsighted. I'm a libertarian and even I can see the shortcomings of a purely open market. It's simply unattainable as long as human nature's greed is involved.

The main issue facing public schools are the unions (like every other industry), not the system itself.


Hardly. These systems make up a very small percentage of the nation's budget. The real reason we're in debt is our continually overspending of military. How many years have we built vehicles that could no longer serve a purpose due to how future and current wars are fought? Instead you'd rather people starve off the system? Sounds like a plan. There simply aren't enough jobs to accommodate everyone having health care.


-- Won't happen, the government will put so much regulation on the insurnace companies that they will not even be able to stand a chance against a public option. I read today that insurance rates are expected to go up 200 to 300 percent just because of this bill.

Yes, just like private schools, FedEx and UPS have failed against the public option.. Right? This is pundit regurgitating.

Sure, premiums will go up (see how easily people can twist the facts?) but you'll get much more in return in ways of full coverage and better co-pays. Spending less for shitty coverage versus, spending double and getting much, much more? That's simple mathematics. With this bill you can actually shop around for better rates in a centralized hub -- how's that for capitalism at work?[/QUOTE]

Here is the budget of the US spending, why don't you take a look at social security and medicad and medicare... Umm and true libertarians do not believe and stick up for the ideals that you are sticking up for. between medicad medicare social security and interest on debt that is 49 percent of our total budget, compared to the 21 percent for our military. Do you realise what will happen if we gut out military? When you owe someone TRILLIONS and you cannot pay it back, eventually you get fucking repod on

[SprayandPrey]

Look, most of you fail to recognize that this is not up for debate. The Constitution is a charter of negative liberties restricting the federal government and empowering the states and people.

This bill is about control and nothing else, if you believe people in power do this crap out of some altruistic love... (kill yourself now)

Lets follow your little pipe dreams though to conclusion ok...
your born you grow up in free government schools, you get a government education for your government job complete with government housing, health insurance, and retirement (ss) and Heck we'll throw in some government transportation too. What else do you need right!

I mean THINK, you want to give Obama all the control but guess what happens in 4/8 years you could get another G.W. Bush! or Hitler for all we know. I bet Hitler loved universal health care. If you want to depend on the Government from cradle to grave (kill yourself now)

Next, the National Debt. The CBO says this HC is budget neutral ok they only looked at the first 10years and that includes yep 10years of taxes of us paying them but only 4-6years of benefits and those 4-6years are suppose to cost 1,000,000,000,000 (non gov't estimates put it around 2-2.5 trillion) ---read back over that bit again try to think about it.

As of right now NOT including the new HC mess We the people owe our Federal government 55,000,000,000,000 think fast you math people that meas you owe personally 350,000 dollars. you wanna write a check for that now or just pass it off onto your children???

Gas. you wouldn't know a libertarian if you were talking to Ron Paul himself.

I know posting in a forum is a waste of time so if you want to have a rational argument and debate at least know what your talking about

start here http://www.usdebtclock.org/
next http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_TjBNjc9Bo&feature=related

and when you feel your ready for a Crash course in Reality
... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw

HERE IS THE NEXUS WATCH AND LEARN OR STFU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VebOTc-7shU&feature=rec-LGOUT-exp_fresh+div-1r-3-HM

[acolyte_to_jippity]

ummm, welcome to the forums sprayAndPray?

[uuntiltheendd]

God this whole vile buissness is making me sick.

He or She knows.

[KaMiKaZi_NiNjA]

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2010/082/6/f/The_End_of_America_by_humon.jpg

[ZERO]

The thing I wonder is this the first time that the US has ever passed a bill that had no bipartisan support but did have bipartisanship in its opposition?

Also by the passing of this law it can be assumed that the government now has the power to regulate and control the distribution of all commodities, now there is a great idea...

Well lets sum up our current direction:

"The attempts made by the capitalistic world during the past ten years to decide the question of nationalities by bringing together the principle of the free development of peoples wilh a system of exploitation of man by man have been fruitless. In addition, the number of national conflicts becomes more and more confusing, even menacing the capitalist regime."

Now tell me if any of the following is not our governments powers:

"

It is a society in which powerful productive forces and progressive science and culture have been created, in which the well-being of the people is constantly rising, and more and more favourable conditions are being provided for the all-round development of the individual.


(a) To represent the Union in its international relations; to conclude all diplomatic relations; to conclude treaties, political and otherwise, with other States;
(b) to modily the exterior frontiers of the Union, as well as to regulate questions concerning the modification of frontiers between the member Republics;
(c) to conclude treaties concerning the reception of new Republics inlo the Union;
(d) to declare war and to conclude peace;
(e) to conclude internal and external loans of the Union and to authorize internal and external loans of the member Republics;
(f) to ratify international treaties;
(g) to direct commerce with foreign countries and to determine the system of intemal commerce;
(h) to establish the basic principles and the general plan of the national economy of the Union; to define the domains of industry and industrial enterprises that are of federal interest; to conclude treaties of concession both federal and in the name of the member Republics;
(i) to direct transportation and the postal and telegraph services;
(j) to organize and direct the armed forces of the Union;
(k) to approve the budget of the federal state which includes the budgets of the memher Republics; to establish duties and federal revenues, making additions and reductions in order to balance the member Republics' budgets; to authorize duties and supplementary taxes to meet the member Republics' budgets;
(l) to establish a uniform system of money and credit;
(m) to establish general principles of exploitation and use of the earth, as well as those of the sub-soil, the forests, and the waters of the territories of the Union;
(n) to establish federal legislation on the emigration from the territory of one of the Republics to the territory of another and to set up a fund for such emigration;
(o) to establish principles of the judicial organization and procedure, as well as civil and eriminal legislation for the Union;
(p) to establish the fundamental laws regarding work;
(q) to establish the general principles regarding public instruction;
(r) to establish the general measures regarding public hygiene;
(s) to establish a standard system of weights and measures;
(t) to organize federal statisties;
(u) to fix the fundamental legislation regarding federal nationality, with reference to the rights of foreigners;
(v) to exereise the right of amnesty in all territories of the Union;

The member Republics will make changes in their Constitutions to conform with the present Constitution.

Just one federal nationality is established for the citizens of the member Republics.

The land, its natural deposits, waters, forests, mills, factories, mines, rail, water and air transport, banks, post, telegraph and telephones, large state-organized agricultural enterprises (state farms, machine and tractor stations and the like) as well as municipal enterprises and the bulk of the dwelling houses in the cities and industrial localities, are state property, that is, belong to the whole people.

The right of citizens to personal ownership of their incomes from work and of their savings, of their dwelling houses and subsidiary household economy, their household furniture and utensils and articles of personal use and convenience, as well as the right of inheritance of personal property of citizens, is protected by law.

Citizens are equal before the law, without distinction of origin, social or property status, race or nationality, sex, education, language, attitude to religion, type and nature of occupation, domicile, or other status.

Women and men have equal rights

Exercise of these rights is ensured by according women equal access with men to education and vocational and professional training, equal opportunities in employment, remuneration, and promotion, and in social and political, and cultural activity, and by special labour and health protection measures for women; by providing conditions enabling mothers to work; by legal protection, and material and moral support for mothers and children, including paid leaves and other benefits for expectant mothers and mothers, and gradual reduction of working time for mothers with small children.

Any direct or indirect limitation of the rights of citizens or establishment of direct or indirect privileges on grounds of race or nationality, and any advocacy of racial or national exclusiveness, hostility, or contempt, are punishable by law.

Enjoyment by citizens of their rights and freedoms must not be to the detriment of the interests of society or the state, or infringe the rights of other citizens.

Citizens have the right to work (that is, to guaranteed employment and pay in accordance wit the quantity and quality of their work, and not below the state-established minimum), including the right to choose their trade or profession, type of job and work in accordance with their inclinations, abilities, training and education, with due account of the needs of society.

Citizens have the right to rest and leisure.


This right is ensured by the establishment of a working week not exceeding 41 hours, for workers and other employees, a shorter working day in a number of trades and industries, and shorter hours for night work; by the provision of paid annual holidays, weekly days of rest, extension of the network of cultural, educational, and health-building institutions, and the development on a mass scale of sport, physical culture, and camping and tourism; by the provision of neighborhood recreational facilities, and of other opportunities for rational use of free time. Citizens have the right to health protection.

This right is ensured by free, qualified medical care provided by state health institutions; by extension of the network of therapeutic and health-building institutions; by the development and improvement of safety and hygiene in industry; by carrying out broad prophylactic measures; by measures to improve the environment; by special care for the health of the rising generation, including prohibition of child labour, excluding the work done by children as part of the school curriculum; and by developing research to prevent and reduce the incidence of disease and ensure citizens a long and active life.

Citizens have the right to maintenance in old age, in sickness, and in the event of complete or partial disability or loss of the breadwinner.

Citizens have the rights to housing.

Citizens have the right to education.

This right is ensured by free provision of all forms of education, by the institution of universal, compulsory secondary education, and broad development of vocational, specialised secondary, and higher education, in which instruction is oriented toward practical activity and production; by the development of extramural, correspondence and evening courses, by the provision of state scholarships and grants and privileges for students; by the free issue of school textbooks; by the opportunity to attend a school where teaching is in the native language; and by the provision of facilities for self-education.

Citizens have the right to enjoy cultural benefits.

This rights is ensured by broad access to the cultural treasures of their own land and of the world that are preserved in state and other public collections; by the development and fair distribution of cultural and educational institutions throughout the country; by developing television and radio broadcasting and the publishing of books, newspapers and periodicals, and by extending the free library service; and by expanding cultural exchanges with other countries.

The rights of authors, inventors and innovators are protected by the state.

Citizens have the right to take part in the management and administration of state and public affairs and in the discussion and adoption of laws and measures of All-Union and local significance.

Every citizen has the right to submit proposals to state bodies and public organisations for improving their activity, and to criticise shortcomings in their work.

In accordance with the interests of the people, citizens are guaranteed freedom of speech, of the press, and of assembly, meetings, street processions and demonstrations.

Exercise of these political freedoms is ensured by putting public buildings, streets and squares at the disposal of the working people and their organisations, by broad dissemination of information, and by the opportunity to use the press, television, and radio.

Public organisations are guaranteed conditions for successfully performing the functions defined in their rules.

Citizens are guaranteed freedom of conscience, that is, the right to profess or not to profess any religion, and to conduct religious worship or atheistic propaganda. Incitement of hostility or hatred on religious grounds is prohibited.

the church is separated from the state, and the school from the church.

The family enjoys the protection of the state.


Marriage is based on the free consent of the woman and the man; the spouses are completely equal in their family relations. The state helps the family by providing and developing a broad system of childcare institutions, by organising and improving communal services and public catering, by paying grants on the birth of a child, by providing children's allowances and benefits for large families, and other forms of family allowances and assistance. Citizens are guaranteed inviolability of the person. No one may be arrested except by a court decision or on the warrant of a procurator.

Citizens are guaranteed inviolability of the home. No one may, without lawful grounds, enter a home against the will of those residing in it.

The privacy of citizens, and of their correspondence, telephone conversations, and telegraphic communications is protected by law.

Respect for the individual and protection of the rights and freedoms of citizens are the duty of all state bodies, public organisations, and officials.

Citizens have the right to protection by the courts against encroachments on their honour and reputation, life and health, and personal freedom and property.

Citizens have the right to lodge a complaint against the actions of officials, state bodies and public bodies. Complaints shall be examined according to the procedure and within the time-limit established by law.


Actions by officials that contravene the law or exceed their powers, and infringe the rights of citizens, may be appealed against in a court in the manner prescribed by law. Citizens' exercise of their rights and freedoms is inseparable from the performance of their duties and obligations.

Citizens are obliged to concern themselves with the upbringing of children, to train them for useful work, and to raise them as worthy members of society. Children are obliged to care for their parents and help them.

Citizens are obliged to protect nature and conserve its riches.

Concern for the preservation of historical monuments and other cultural values is a duty and obligation of citizens

It is the internationalist duty of citizens to promote friendship and co-operation with peoples of other lands and help maintain and strengthen world peace.

"

Well lets all thank the government for giving us all these great promises. Now in order for them to fulfill these promises they need only enough power, which they now have, and I am sure they will take care of us nicely. It is great that finally the people of the United States have a government that is willing to provide them with all of this and surly this will preserve the liberty and natural born rights of every person in America.

[Spasm]

How about this for ya... Happened today.

"Let me remind you this has been going on for years. We are bringing it to a halt. The harsh fact of the matter is when you’re going to pass legislation that will cover 300 American people in different ways it takes a long time to do the necessary administrative steps that have to be taken to put the legislation together to control the people." -- Rep. John Dingell (D-MI)

Love the Soviet Constitution Zero. Fits us right on don't it.

[SprayandPrey]

Nice copypasta of the SOVIET CONSTITUTION lol 1939 constitution of the USSR

Good Job Zero! I think your on the right track!

If you think this is great and wonderful I recommend you google the term Holodomor
In soviet Russia attacked Ukrainian nationalism with Starvation. KillingFarmers, yes farmers they produced more than enough food but Stalin wouldn't let them have it.
The Holodomor killed FAR MORE than Hitlers Holocaust, to the tune of 10,000,000 Ten Million starved to death by their Nanny state

And you should see some stats from China and their system (DO SOME RESEARCH)

And this wasn't some superbad guy misusing a system this is Joseph Stalin a founding father of socialism!

[SprayandPrey]

How about this for ya... Happened today.

"Let me remind you this has been going on for years. We are bringing it to a halt. The harsh fact of the matter is when you’re going to pass legislation that will cover 300 American people in different ways it takes a long time to do the necessary administrative steps that have to be taken to put the legislation together to control the people." -- Rep. John Dingell (D-MI)



it takes a long time to do the necessary administrative steps that have to be taken to put the legislation together to control the people."


to put the legislation together to control the people."


to control the people."


to control




Oh and btw I've been playing counterstrike for a longtime but just now joined to post to the forums due this topic

[OMGBEARS]

I am for universal health care, universal education, fire and police protection, as well as federal subsidies for agriculture. We are one of the few first world countries in the world that don't provide universal healthcare for their citizens, and we have the lowest life expectancies amongst them to show for it. Not to mention, medical bills are the prime cause of foreclosures in the U.S. -- mind you foreclosures and toxic assets are what started this recession to begin with. I'd rather pay a little more in taxes for the peace of mind that if I need care, I can get it without having to file for bankruptcy. Peoples health should not be a for-profit thing. If all 300+million Americans were insured by the government for free health care then the risk would be spread out over 300+million Americans, meaning premiums would be MUCH lower than they are now. Not to mention the lack of advertising or phishing costs, lack of overhead due to being a federal agency, and lack of profit-mongering. Premiums (aka taxes at this point) would be very low in exchange for complete coverage.

If you think America is the greatest nation in the world then you are kidding yourself. Consider being hated the world over for our ignorance, our gluttony, and our "nationalistic pride." Consider the idea that before now, people would be denied lifesaving procedures because their insurance company wants to save some money. Consider the idea that we spend 2% of our GDP on education, the lowest amongst first world countries, and 21% of our GDP on our armed forces and "national security" -- the highest in the world. We as people need to realize the global dynamics are changing, and not in our favor. Instead of proceeding "business as usual" we need to either adapt or get phased out completely. The ignorance displayed by those of you who compared Obama to Hitler or Stalin is just one of many grave blunders commonly demonstrated by the right.

EDIT:

OH! And to those of you who compared Obama to Hitler, you are idiots.

That is all.

[StarsMine]

EDIT:

OH! And to those of you who compared Obama to Hitler, you are idiots.

That is all.

Yea I saw that, that was stupid. Not to mention that Hitler was fucking brilliant, charismatic, and a damn good painter. People tend to over look that, because of his extream racism. But thats understandable.

[gas.]

Shit. If i become independent, I dont want to pay that. I only make 3k a year :/
You'd get it for free then.

[gas.]

Here is the budget of the US spending, why don't you take a look at social security and medicad and medicare... Umm and true libertarians do not believe and stick up for the ideals that you are sticking up for. between medicad medicare social security and interest on debt that is 49 percent of our total budget, compared to the 21 percent for our military. Do you realise what will happen if we gut out military? When you owe someone TRILLIONS and you cannot pay it back, eventually you get fucking repod on
No one is a "true" anything. To fall completely in a party line takes no brain cells or logical thinking. You can agree with certain ideas all over the map, but when it comes down to it, I fall most in line with libertarians. I'm also a realist. A true libertarian society would fail unless you spend countless billions on regulating the open market, which in turn would not make it so open and it goes against the small government libertarianism tries to implement. You simply cannot trust companies to not screw over the consumer for their own bottom line, as we've seen time and time again.

Your chart is all well and good except it doesn't include "additional aid" funding sent to Iraq and other countries. When that's computed, it is a much starker chart.


Gas. you wouldn't know a libertarian if you were talking to Ron Paul himself.

I know posting in a forum is a waste of time so if you want to have a rational argument and debate at least know what your talking about

start here http://www.usdebtclock.org/
next http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_TjBNjc9Bo&feature=related

and when you feel your ready for a Crash course in Reality
... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw

HERE IS THE NEXUS WATCH AND LEARN OR STFU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VebOTc-7shU&feature=rec-LGOUT-exp_fresh+div-1r-3-HM
I donated to his campaign for presidency.

I'm well aware of what libertarian entails, state-rights, small government, no or little taxation, isolationist foreign policy, gold-backed currency and completely free market (would never work). The difference is I'm smart enough to realize these are ideals, ideals that will never come to fruition and couldn't be half-implemented into our current society. It's an all or nothing shot with the libertarian system. Even you can see that. Just because I disagree with one or two portions of the libertarian manifesto disregards my agreeing with the 90% of it? News to me. Continue to fall in that party line though, good worker.

And I see the "Scream socialist!" group is out in full force. lol. Did I time-warp back to the 80's for Christ's sake?

Don't worry, in five years this will die down and it will be generally accepted, just as every other socialist program that benefited Americans. The major talking heads will move on to the next infringement on their rights and we'll argue about some other twisting of the facts. Rinse, repeat. God bless America.

[Spasm]

"I am for universal health care, universal education, fire and police protection, as well as federal subsidies for agriculture."

-- Your opinion, and very socialist view. I think those matters should be state concerns not the federal government, and just no on healthcare and argiculture.

"We are one of the few first world countries in the world that don't provide universal healthcare for their citizens, and we have the lowest life expectancies amongst them to show for it. "

-- Ok true, but if our healthcare is that bad, why do people come to our country to get it?

"Not to mention, medical bills are the prime cause of foreclosures in the U.S. -- mind you foreclosures and toxic assets are what started this recession to begin with."

-- Downright made up information. The main cause for foreclosures in the U.S. is unemployment. People getting loans they should have never gotten thanks to Bill Clinton. What Bill did was to lower the capitalization limits required, and to lower the creditworthiness levels required for a mortgage to be considered "sub-prime", which in turn resulted in banks giving out loans they should have never gave out. Thank you once again big government.

"If all 300+million Americans were insured by the government for free health care then the risk would be spread out over 300+million Americans, meaning premiums would be MUCH lower than they are now. Not to mention the lack of advertising or phishing costs, lack of overhead due to being a federal agency, and lack of profit-mongering. Premiums (aka taxes at this point) would be very low in exchange for complete coverage."

-- Do you know what regulations the government had on healthcare before the this bill? The MAIN reason it is so high is because of all the extra things the insurance companies have to cover. If I am 25 years old, I do not need 90 percent of the stuff regulated by our government. i.e. Insurance companies have to insure programs to help you stop smoking... what???

"If you think America is the greatest nation in the world then you are kidding yourself. Consider being hated the world over for our ignorance, our gluttony, and our "nationalistic pride." Consider the idea that before now, people would be denied lifesaving procedures because their insurance company wants to save some money. Consider the idea that we spend 2% of our GDP on education, the lowest amongst first world countries, and 21% of our GDP on our armed forces and "national security" -- the highest in the world. We as people need to realize the global dynamics are changing, and not in our favor. Instead of proceeding "business as usual" we need to either adapt or get phased out completely."

-- If you don't think America is the greatest country in world your an idiot, and I did not start calling out names like you.

-- The world is not cupcakes and ice cream. Look how fast Russia invaded Georgia. We cut our military we will be a target. Not everyone cares about people being healthy and having great things, some men our out to conquer and control the world. History repeats itself. I would say the main reason why Russia and China are not taking the world by force is because they are scared of us, you take that away, you will give Putin his day.

"The ignorance displayed by those of you who compared Obama to Hitler or Stalin is just one of many grave blunders commonly demonstrated by the right. OH! And to those of you who compared Obama to Hitler, you are idiots. "

-- Maybe you need a little history lesson.

The nation was in shambles. A previous ruler had led the country into an unnecessary war, the economy was failing, and a sense of depression filled the air. Then, a new leader emerged. He was a powerful speaker, offering hope, change, and a fix to the economy. He wrote two books about his experiences and used his literary work to propel him to success. He was an open christian with some muslim friends. He called for unity and considered himself an advocate of peace. Some of his political opponents cast him as naive and inexperienced. He also had alot of radical ties, but the media, and ultimately the voters, were willing to overlook that.

Barack Obama... oh wait no thats Adolf Hitler. You can do more research on your own time.


EDIT, just because I do not want to double post, this is for you gas.

"No one is a "true" anything. To fall completely in a party line takes no brain cells or logical thinking. You can agree with certain ideas all over the map, but when it comes down to it, I fall most in line with libertarians. I'm also a realist. A true libertarian society would fail unless you spend countless billions on regulating the open market, which in turn would not make it so open and it goes against the small government libertarianism tries to implement. You simply cannot trust companies to not screw over the consumer for their own bottom line, as we've seen time and time again.

Your chart is all well and good except it doesn't include "additional aid" funding sent to Iraq and other countries. When that's computed, it is a much starker chart."

-- Your absolutely right that people should not follow a party down a narrow path, you should think on your own. But the very fact that libertarians support entails, state-rights, small government, no or little taxation, isolationist foreign policy, gold-backed currency and completely free market as you stated, by supporting medicad medicare social security, healthcare. You essentially have elimated state-rights, small government, no or little taxation and free-market. SO the two parts you really believe in is gold-backed currency and the isolationist foreign policy. Your 2/6 and you call yourself a libertarian.

[gas.]

I still don't understand the anger at this bill. This is not public health care, it is insurance reform.

This does not include a public option, allows citizens with private health care to retain their current insurance but with greater co-pays and they can now no longer be dropped due to illness. It now allows people to shop for more affordable health care in a centralized hub and they can't be declined due to past or current health issues. If you own a car, you have to have insurance.. as you own your body, you have to have insurance. When people go to the hospital and can't pay their bills, it gets passed on to those paying for insurance anyway with higher premiums or the tax payer.

We pay taxes for the roads, libraries, schools, public works, police, fire department, social security, medicare, medicaid, etc. All are "socialist". Yet this is where people draw the line?

Don't like paying for the health care for people on welfare? You already do.

Like I said, I'm not sure how many people have even read what the bill covers only assuming this is the public option they first tried to roll out. They passed welfare reform in the 90's with the tag "we'll fix it further later" and have never done so. The shitstorm this bill has caused will likely leave it unattended for decades.

In the end, even if this bill progressed into one with a public option, if it also provided a private option those with health care will not pay a cent more and those without it would finally have it, at expense to themselves.. though at much less expense than they would have paid for it separately. This is a bad thing? You don't think health of a country is one of the most important aspects of a first-world, industrialized nation?

[gas.]

The nation was in shambles. A previous ruler had led the country into an unnecessary war, the economy was failing, and a sense of depression filled the air. Then, a new leader emerged. He was a powerful speaker, offering hope, change, and a fix to the economy. He wrote two books about his experiences and used his literary work to propel him to success. He was an open christian with some muslim friends. He called for unity and considered himself an advocate of peace. Some of his political opponents cast him as naive and inexperienced. He also had alot of radical ties, but the media, and ultimately the voters, were willing to overlook that.

Barack Obama... oh wait no thats Adolf Hitler. You can do more research on your own time.
This is a jokingly simplistic comparison.

Hitler, in one of his books he openly discussed this detest for a rather large group in his own country's society. Actually two, communists and jews. That and he gained support because the only option Germany had after the WWI treaty they signed was to spark industry into a war-time effort. They had no other option. Go to war or go bankrupt.

All of that you quoted was not the reason Hitler is remembered, as you well know. So given that Obama's similarities fall in line with the hand-selected positives of Hitler's rise to power hardly give your smear tactic any weight. Are you afraid he'll build concentration camps for Texans or something? lol

It was a good try though. I'm sure Glenn Beck or whatever coked-up nutjob in the media would run with it. You should write for them.

[Spasm]

This is a jokingly simplistic comparison.

Hitler, in one of his books he openly discussed this detest for a rather large group in his own country's society. Actually two, communists and jews. That and he gained support because the only option Germany had after the WWI treaty they signed was to spark industry into a war-time effort. They had no other option. Go to war or go bankrupt.

All of that you quoted was not the reason Hitler is remembered, as you well know. So given that Obama's similarities fall in line with the hand-selected positives of Hitler's rise to power hardly give your smear tactic any weight. Are you afraid he'll build concentration camps for Texans or something? lol

It was a good try though. I'm sure Glenn Beck or whatever coked-up nutjob in the media would run with it. You should write for them.

Actually over 800 concentration camps already exist across the USA, and I could give a better comparison but I really don't feel like doing the research for a forum. http://www.topix.com/forum/city/russell-springs-ky/TRHSGT6OIGQNRCO78

[StarsMine]

Republicans are trying to put amendments to the bill so it can get a re-vote

I absolutely love some of these.
Preventing those who are convicted sex offenders from getting ED pills :lmao:

[gas.]

Actually over 800 concentration camps already exist across the USA, and I could give a better comparison but I really don't feel like doing the research for a forum. http://www.topix.com/forum/city/russell-springs-ky/TRHSGT6OIGQNRCO78
Should I buy stock in aluminum foil? There seems to be quite a need nowadays.

Republicans are trying to put amendments to the bill so it can get a re-vote

I absolutely love some of these.
Preventing those who are convicted sex offenders from getting ED pills :lmao:
Funny, because the Republicans already have over 200 amendments to the bill before it was passed.

[SprayandPrey]

The ignorance displayed by those of you who compared Obama to Hitler or Stalin is just one of many grave blunders commonly demonstrated by the right.

EDIT:

OH! And to those of you who compared Obama to Hitler, you are idiots.

That is all.


Did you even read my post? or are you willfully dense most people when they cant argue try to change the subject or personally attack. Either way you fail to recognize my main point.

So I'm not comparing Obama to anyone and if you had a reading comprehension past a 4th grade level you would understand that I simply suggest that in 4/8 years be it a Democrat or Republican, it could be someone very bad, that believe it or not my abuse the powers of the office. I mean History shows that people in power Never abuse it...

You trust Obama and want to give him power over every part of your life and pay him to do it OK fine, but would you give Bush that power ??? or some unknown ?

You like other countries better than ours OK FUCKIN MOVE to Canada. What makes America great is the power resides as close to the people as possible.

[SprayandPrey]

Should I buy stock in aluminum foil? There seems to be quite a need nowadays.


I guess this is how you explain EXECUTIVE ORDERS maybe your the one wearing the Foil hat cause something aint getting though to you.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10990
allows the government to take over all modes of transportation and control of highways and seaports.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 10995
allows the government to seize and control the communication media.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 10997
allows the government to take over all electrical power, gas, petroleum, fuels and minerals.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 10998
allows the government to seize all means of transportation, including personal cars, trucks or vehicles of any kind and total control over all highways, seaports, and waterways.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 10999
allows the government to take over all food resources and farms.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11000
allows the government to mobilize civilians into work brigades under government supervision.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11001
allows the government to take over all health, education and welfare functions.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11002
designates the Postmaster General to operate a national registration of all persons.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11003 allows the government to take over all airports and aircraft, including commercial aircraft.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11004 allows the Housing and Finance Authority to relocate communities, build new housing with public funds, designate areas to be abandoned, and establish new locations for populations.




LOOK the point is there is serious groundwork being laid and the potential for abuse is EXTREME !!! you trust Obama some trusted Bush but it dosent matter you should ask Who's next ??? because WHEN someone gets in who takes all this rope you give em and hangs you with it well I suggest you (kill yourself now)



And its not about people saying everything else is ok and now suddenly they have a problem with HealthCare there is a MASS Awakening in America and this was the first major fight and the Government Steamrolled the American people further proving their out of control. Bush started picking up speed and now Obama is pushing Warp speed on implementing this ground work. People are waking up! where the fuck are you? still suckling off the government Tit? watch your government Media and eat up what they sell you cause when the shit hits the fan your toast dip shit.

[ZERO]

Every nation that has failed did things on the basis that they were #1 and fill in the blank can never fail.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. History teaches us that diminishing personal liberty has never worked. Every nation that has allowed its government to control more and more power has failed. They also usually started out the same with a few good ideas and intentions. Also if you want to see where we are really going you only need to read in depth the history from 1900-1950 and you can see where many of these ideas came from. Back under FDR we tried to make health care a right and that idea came directly from the ussr. When you study the people who shaped history for those 50 years and look into their influences it is clear what the objective was. Now we have politicians who follow the beliefs of FDR and others from the first half of the 20th century except that today while we admit that they are inspired by the likes of FDR we will continue down the path and see where FDR got his inspiration from.

Too much do we allow ourselves to be fooled by all of these politicians by not actually looking at the truth and instead just the words. Take for example the statements made on education before. Yes it is likely true that other nations spend more $ however if you look at the numbers the US had increased $ in education for years and there has been no benefit. The translation is that according to the data given spending more $ on education has not yielded better education. Therefore it is illogical to conclude that $ is the problem. This would thus logically lead to a question of what the real problem is but lets just say it is not one that those in power would like us to discuss.

I admit that I may look at data with a bias as I want to find reasons to support individual liberty and give people the power they deserve over their lives. However, I will not ignore the truth and the truth is what I am interested in. With this in mind I can say that the further and further down the rabbit hole I have gone the more and more clear it becomes how much of the world is totally filled with lies. It is no wonder that we have so many problems when nothing that we even talk about anymore is even based in fact but merely talking points assigned to us by the people in power.


Also the orders listed above were repealed by orders from LBJ they were originally put in place during the time of the Cuban missile crisis for logical reasons. (at least if my memory serves correctly)

[XxMastagunzxX]

If you think America is the greatest nation in the world then you are kidding yourself.

Get the fuck out of here.

[ZERO]

Well you could also say it is the least worst...

[Clone]

after sorta reading some of this I have this to say...

I aint gonna even attempt to say something intelligent and logical because my head would fucking explode....

either way If america wants universal health care for all I think you guys are gonna need more money....

Clone

[ZERO]

after sorta reading some of this I have this to say...

I aint gonna even attempt to say something intelligent and logical because my head would fucking explode....

either way If america wants universal health care for all I think you guys are gonna need more money....

Clone

Unlikely clearly we have no budget problems at all even before this new bill... :banghead:

[Spasm]

Also the orders listed above were repealed by orders from LBJ they were originally put in place during the time of the Cuban missile crisis for logical reasons. (at least if my memory serves correctly)

The FEMA list of Presidential Executive Orders



On February 16, 1962, President John Kennedy signed several Executive Orders which would allegedly give certain dictatorial powers to appointed bureaucrats in the event a "National Emergency" should be declared by the President — whichever president is sitting in office at the designated time. At the president's discretion "in any time of increased international tension or economic or financial crisis", the E.O.'s could theoretically be enacted.

These E.O.'s signed by Kennedy would give authority to the Federal Emergency Management Agency to control: communications, energy, food, fuel, farms, transportation, highways, railroads, inland waterways and seaports, health, education and welfare, drafts citizens into work forces under government supervision; relocation of populations, designates areas to be abandoned as 'unsafe'; relocates communities, and controls all public storage facilities.

On February 27, 1962 Kennedy signed E.O. 11051 designating FEMA as the authorized agency to implement the above orders, and which authority can be re-designated by the original authority.

President Nixon signed E.O. 11490 combining all the above to be enacted in one fell swoop; on July 20, 1979 Carter added a few minor amendments to them; and, in June, 1994 then president Bill Clinton signed E.O. 12919, which appears to encompass all of the E.O.'s.

We have found no Executive Orders that would nullify any of the above, so it appears they are all considered to be on the books at the time of this posting.

Given there is no Constitutional authority for any president to declare a "National Emergency," we have wondered how the orchestraters of this plan expected to successfully execute the E.O.'s.

The plan for total control of every aspect of our lives has been under construction for a long time. As you read these executive orders, bear in mind that they mean nothing by themselves. They are not law, nor can they become law by and of themselves.

However, under legislation that is currently pending in most (if not all) states, they could potentially take on significant meaning.

The Emergency Health Powers legislation, pending in state capitols all across America — if passed — would give the governor the power to declare a state of health emergency by executive order. He then would be able to hand the reigns of power to whomever he chooses — including the state's emergency management agency, which could essentially act as an arm of the Federal Emergency Management Agency.

Apart from — and sometimes combined with — these Emergency Health Powers Acts are varying forms of "anti-terror" bills that are virtually redefining the words "terror," "terrorism," and "terrorist."

Thats what I found about those, seems as if they are still usable under an "Emergency"

[ZERO]

Directly from the Federal Register

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10990
Revoked by the revoking of the superseding order 11807 by Executive Order 12196

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10995
Revoked by Executive Order 11556

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10997
Revoked by Executive Order 11490

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10998
Revoked by Executive Order 11490

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10999
Revoked by Executive Order 11490

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11000
Revoked by Executive Order 11490

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11001
Revoked by Executive Order 11490

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11002
Revoked by Executive Order 11490

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11003
Revoked by Executive Order 11490

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11004
Revoked by Executive Order 11490

You should note however that while Executive Order 11490 did revoke the ones you stated as my memory recalled it did not exactly make things better and is actually the order that many point to as allowing for a "shadow gov"

However 11490 was revoked by Executive Order 12656

This last order has been amended by Clinton in 98 and Bush in 01 and 03.

[loka]

If your using FEMA as an example, it is the worst example you could use. Katrina anyone? FEMA is a revolving door of problems. Use a better example.

[Spasm]

Every nation that has failed did things on the basis that they were #1 and fill in the blank can never fail.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions. History teaches us that diminishing personal liberty has never worked. Every nation that has allowed its government to control more and more power has failed. They also usually started out the same with a few good ideas and intentions. Also if you want to see where we are really going you only need to read in depth the history from 1900-1950 and you can see where many of these ideas came from. Back under FDR we tried to make health care a right and that idea came directly from the ussr. When you study the people who shaped history for those 50 years and look into their influences it is clear what the objective was. Now we have politicians who follow the beliefs of FDR and others from the first half of the 20th century except that today while we admit that they are inspired by the likes of FDR we will continue down the path and see where FDR got his inspiration from.


Good intentions is the deal breaker with the real world. Soviet communism was paved with good intentions. "A perfect society where it's no longer about the personal family and household but about the community." History shows where this led, to millions and millions of innocent people getting downright murdered. I think giving everyone healthcare is great idea if you only look at it from the moral side, the good intentions side, but it just does not work financially. What it eventually leads to is something far worse then the orginial problem. Just like Zero stated, history shows that large governments just do not work.

[ZERO]

I was not just referring to large gov I was referring to the size of its power in what aspects of your life are controlled and influenced by it. Take for example feudalism now that is not a large gov per say but you were = fucked. However you were provided with security and land and other needs. It is a good thing we have our lord to give us all this great stuff!

[OMGBEARS]

Get the fuck out of here.

I just want to quote this to let you know I read it and to likewise let you know that I rolled my eyes. Good job refuting my points.


Actually over 800 concentration camps already exist across the USA, and I could give a better comparison but I really don't feel like doing the research for a forum. http://www.topix.com/forum/city/russell-springs-ky/TRHSGT6OIGQNRCO78

Rex 84 was issued in the middle of Ronald Reagan's (the guy every republican bows down to) presidency. To my knowledge it's considered a "continuity of government" protocol in the event of nuclear war or another world war. Of course, this power can be abused, but what powers can't?


Your opinion, and very socialist view. I think those matters should be state concerns not the federal government, and just no on healthcare and argiculture.

I am a very liberal progressive and borderline socialist, so this makes sense. As for agriculture, the federal government already provides subsidies to farmers, so yeah for that. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_subsidy#United_States)Healthcare at the moment isn't subsidized to my knowledge.


Ok true, but if our healthcare is that bad, why do people come to our country to get it?

People who come here for our health services pay out of pocket for the care they receive. They don't need to worry about the bills. My point is they have the funds for that access. 30 million Americans cannot afford access to our healthcare system. What a public option would do (or a single-payer system), would enable those millions of people to gain access to the same health care that insureds (and those rich enough to pay out of pocket) receive.


Downright made up information. The main cause for foreclosures in the U.S. is unemployment. People getting loans they should have never gotten thanks to Bill Clinton. What Bill did was to lower the capitalization limits required, and to lower the creditworthiness levels required for a mortgage to be considered "sub-prime", which in turn resulted in banks giving out loans they should have never gave out. Thank you once again big government.

My bad, medical bills were far and above the leading cause of bankruptcies in the United States in 2001. (http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2005/bankruptcy_study.html) What is even more shocking is that most of these people had insurance, too. I meant bankruptcies. Draw your own conclusions.


Do you know what regulations the government had on healthcare before the this bill? The MAIN reason it is so high is because of all the extra things the insurance companies have to cover. If I am 25 years old, I do not need 90 percent of the stuff regulated by our government. i.e. Insurance companies have to insure programs to help you stop smoking... what???

That's odd.. because insurance companies have been making record profits (http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/30417) with money they've collected in premiums then turning around and denying coverage for anything from misspelled names to being in the 95 percentile for weight (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,564501,00.html) as a breast-feeding baby. Not even coherent yet and already being denied coverage. Wow..


If you don't think America is the greatest country in world your an idiot, and I did not start calling out names like you.

I calls them as I sees them. Refute some of my points then get back to me.


The world is not cupcakes and ice cream. Look how fast Russia invaded Georgia. We cut our military we will be a target. Not everyone cares about people being healthy and having great things, some men our out to conquer and control the world. History repeats itself. I would say the main reason why Russia and China are not taking the world by force is because they are scared of us, you take that away, you will give Putin his day.

Have you heard of mutually assured destruction? It is the reason that there will not be another war between super powers. War is for first world countries to wage on third world countries.


Maybe you need a little history lesson.

The nation was in shambles. A previous ruler had led the country into an unnecessary war, the economy was failing, and a sense of depression filled the air. Then, a new leader emerged. He was a powerful speaker, offering hope, change, and a fix to the economy. He wrote two books about his experiences and used his literary work to propel him to success. He was an open christian with some muslim friends. He called for unity and considered himself an advocate of peace. Some of his political opponents cast him as naive and inexperienced. He also had alot of radical ties, but the media, and ultimately the voters, were willing to overlook that.

Barack Obama... oh wait no thats Adolf Hitler. You can do more research on your own time.

Sounds like any public figure or really almost anyone who runs for president.


Did you even read my post? or are you willfully dense most people when they cant argue try to change the subject or personally attack. Either way you fail to recognize my main point.

So I'm not comparing Obama to anyone and if you had a reading comprehension past a 4th grade level you would understand that I simply suggest that in 4/8 years be it a Democrat or Republican, it could be someone very bad, that believe it or not my abuse the powers of the office. I mean History shows that people in power Never abuse it...

You trust Obama and want to give him power over every part of your life and pay him to do it OK fine, but would you give Bush that power ??? or some unknown ?

You like other countries better than ours OK FUCKIN MOVE to Canada. What makes America great is the power resides as close to the people as possible.

Did you even read my post? Methinks you're overlooking some things.

Remember, every American is a Canadian when overseas.

[maynard]

how much does the average amerian have 2 pay for this medical now?

[OMGBEARS]

how much does the average amerian have 2 pay for this medical now?

"In 2008, U.S. health care spending was about $7,681 per resident and accounted for 16.2% of the nation’s Gross Domestic Product (GDP); this is among the highest of all industrialized countries. Total health care expenditures grew at an annual rate of 4.4 percent in 2008, a slower rate than recent years, yet still outpacing inflation and the growth in national income. Absent reform, there is general agreement that health costs are likely to continue to rise in the foreseeable future. Many analysts have cited controlling health care costs as a key tenet for broader economic stability and growth, and President Obama has made cost control a focus of health reform efforts under way."

-- kaiseredu.org (http://www.kaiseredu.org/topics_im.asp?imID=1&parentID=61&id=358)

[ZERO]

It will be hard to say as it will depend if they get forced to their own plans from companies dropping coverage due to increased cost or not. The main increase will be the new taxes as the amount in cost attributed to insurance company profits is around 2% how this could considerably lower cost to the average person is a mystery to me.

[loka]

how much does the average amerian have 2 pay for this medical now?

It depends on your job status. Health status. Family size. Depends what your company provides for insurance. Then of course copay's if you have Private insurance. I know it's free if you go to college and claimed as a dependent by your parents or you can pay the university health insurance which is around 800 for a whole year.

I just went in today to go under MassHealth. I will most likely go under HMO Blue, Harvard Pilgrim or Tufts. It'll be free or I pay a low fee per month because I am unemployed, until I await for May, and MHS will kick in for me. Of course this is under the state I live in and I don't know what other states have state mandated health insurance. https://www.mahealthconnector.org/portal/site/connector/

[maynard]

so why is every 1 so pissed off about this? seems like it's not going 2 really cost that much for the average person.. and this would lead 2 a healthyer and better workforce for your nation....?

[loka]

so why is every 1 so pissed off about this? seems like it's not going 2 really cost that much for the average person.. and this would lead 2 a healthyer and better workforce for your nation....?

Because people are afraid of change maynard. I remember when they passed gay marriage in Massachusetts, and every ultra-conservative nut job wanted to make the comparison of "well now a man can marry his pet." Get real idiots. Honestly though, like I've been mentioning for awhile, Massachusetts was the first state that all Massachusetts residents are required to have health insurance. To cut costs, we now deny immigrants from gaining health insurance (which I agree with), but I guess for my family they feel safe now that if something were to happen to me (which I could give a fuck and why I waited so long until the cut off date for getting fined) I am going to be insured until I get my ship date orders.

[gas.]

I guess this is how you explain EXECUTIVE ORDERS maybe your the one wearing the Foil hat cause something aint getting though to you.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10990
allows the government to take over all modes of transportation and control of highways and seaports.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 10995
allows the government to seize and control the communication media.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 10997
allows the government to take over all electrical power, gas, petroleum, fuels and minerals.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 10998
allows the government to seize all means of transportation, including personal cars, trucks or vehicles of any kind and total control over all highways, seaports, and waterways.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 10999
allows the government to take over all food resources and farms.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11000
allows the government to mobilize civilians into work brigades under government supervision.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11001
allows the government to take over all health, education and welfare functions.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11002
designates the Postmaster General to operate a national registration of all persons.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11003 allows the government to take over all airports and aircraft, including commercial aircraft.
EXECUTIVE ORDER 11004 allows the Housing and Finance Authority to relocate communities, build new housing with public funds, designate areas to be abandoned, and establish new locations for populations.




LOOK the point is there is serious groundwork being laid and the potential for abuse is EXTREME !!! you trust Obama some trusted Bush but it dosent matter you should ask Who's next ??? because WHEN someone gets in who takes all this rope you give em and hangs you with it well I suggest you (kill yourself now)



And its not about people saying everything else is ok and now suddenly they have a problem with HealthCare there is a MASS Awakening in America and this was the first major fight and the Government Steamrolled the American people further proving their out of control. Bush started picking up speed and now Obama is pushing Warp speed on implementing this ground work. People are waking up! where the fuck are you? still suckling off the government Tit? watch your government Media and eat up what they sell you cause when the shit hits the fan your toast dip shit.
Mature. :lmao:

Keep reading up on youtube conspiracy theorists.

[Spasm]

It will be hard to say as it will depend if they get forced to their own plans from companies dropping coverage due to increased cost or not. The main increase will be the new taxes as the amount in cost attributed to insurance company profits is around 2% how this could considerably lower cost to the average person is a mystery to me.

They plan on going into the negatives... thats how it is portrayed as cheaper. This bill doesnt' really start affecting us until 2015 but we are going to start paying more taxes this year. So for the first 4 years we are getting taxed for nothing. The CBO only looked 10 years ahead and said that we would break even, but thats only true because we are paying taxes on it for 4 years without getting much of anything.

"People who come here for our health services pay out of pocket for the care they receive. They don't need to worry about the bills. My point is they have the funds for that access. 30 million Americans cannot afford access to our healthcare system. What a public option would do (or a single-payer system), would enable those millions of people to gain access to the same health care that insureds (and those rich enough to pay out of pocket) receive. "

-- If its free then why in the FUCK would they come here for healthcare, thats right because they cannot get it at their own country, use some common sense for fucks sake.

" Originally Posted by Spasm View Post
Actually over 800 concentration camps already exist across the USA, and I could give a better comparison but I really don't feel like doing the research for a forum. http://www.topix.com/forum/city/russ...SGT6OIGQNRCO78
Rex 84 was issued in the middle of Ronald Reagan's (the guy every republican bows down to) presidency. To my knowledge it's considered a "continuity of government" protocol in the event of nuclear war or another world war. Of course, this power can be abused, but what powers can't?"

-- I only stated this because gas. mentioned something about concencration camps being built here as a joke, and I wanted to point out that they are already here, he just did not realise it.

"My bad, medical bills were far and above the leading cause of bankruptcies in the United States in 2001. What is even more shocking is that most of these people had insurance, too. I meant bankruptcies. Draw your own conclusions."

-- Good Point but http://www.bankruptcy-canada.ca/bankruptcy/causes-of-bankruptcy-in-canada.htm this study right here says that 1/3 of Canada bankruptcy is still due to medical problems, even with a single payer nationilized healthcare system. To say that its a direct result of our system would be false but nationilized healthcare does have that benefit, but does that benefit outweigh all the cons and debt assosciated with single payer healthcare, I think not.


"My bad, medical bills were far and above the leading cause of bankruptcies in the United States in 2001. What is even more shocking is that most of these people had insurance, too. I meant bankruptcies. Draw your own conclusions."

--http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/25/how-much-money-do-insurance-companies-make-a-primer/ I just randomly found this article in google, this health insurance companies profit margin is 4.07 percent, that is nothing compared to other companies such as Microsoft (27.07 percent) Toyota (16.7 percent) McDonalds (44 percent), just to name a few.

"Have you heard of mutually assured destruction? It is the reason that there will not be another war between super powers. War is for first world countries to wage on third world countries. "

-- World leaders thought the same before WWI and WWII. Ever heard of the League of Nations? Maybe you should because that is basically the same idea.

-- I also believe this idea is false although I don't have much proof besides looking into history, I will say that I think this mentality is how you get conquered.

"Sounds like any public figure or really almost anyone who runs for president.
"

-- Just an FYI that was a quick example, but I would be willing to look up information proving that your statement is directly false. I heard jokes of some of our Presidents being alcholics and nothing of a leader getting elected and becoming a great President.


This country was FOUNDED on beliefs of a small government and strong state and individual freedom. We are gave life liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness, we are not gave happiness just the pursuit of it. It's people like you OMGBEARS that go out and try and change the way this country was founded, to fundementally change how are forefathers chose this great nation to be. They made things certain ways because of the way the British Parliment treated them. There is an unsettling similarity between our conflict with England and our conflict with the federal government. If you don't like the Constiution and you think that government is the way to go, then MOVE. Canada or England needs to be your home and don't come crying to us when Russia invades your ass and your pathetic ass military and save the planet mentality gets you no where. From your earlier posts you proved that you could give two fucks less about the debt and I can see why. Leftist don't think about the debt, they don't see the whole picture, just the good side of things not the negative side. The fact is that medicad, medicare, social security spend half of our GDP every year. The other fact is that it is projected that these programs will put us roughly 55 TRILLION in debt. These countries we owe it to are eventually going to get fucking pissed off at us and get there money, it's either that or they will just drop us all together, which would lead to a revolution among other things. This country is headed down an all to familiar road, Rome anyone?

[Spasm]

Because people are afraid of change maynard. I remember when they passed gay marriage in Massachusetts, and every ultra-conservative nut job wanted to make the comparison of "well now a man can marry his pet." Get real idiots. Honestly though, like I've been mentioning for awhile, Massachusetts was the first state that all Massachusetts residents are required to have health insurance. To cut costs, we now deny immigrants from gaining health insurance (which I agree with), but I guess for my family they feel safe now that if something were to happen to me (which I could give a fuck and why I waited so long until the cut off date for getting fined) I am going to be insured until I get my ship date orders.

This may be a double post but meh, I am a conservative, but I do believe that gay people have the right to get married. I could care less to be perfectly honest. I also believe that most drugs should be deregulated and legal, which is huge liberal view. I also believe in abortion, espcially if someone if raped and they do not want the child. I have my beliefs, but I cannot logically make any sense of left economic views, I have tried and tried and it just does not make logical sense. People actually want to give up there freedom of choice in order to get mandated to do things, it blows my mind.

[Holy-Sonic]

This country was FOUNDED on beliefs of a small government and strong state and individual freedom. We are gave life liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness, we are not gave happiness just the pursuit of it. It's people like you OMGBEARS that go out and try and change the way this country was founded, to fundementally change how are forefathers chose this great nation to be. They made things certain ways because of the way the British Parliment treated them. There is an unsettling similarity between our conflict with England and our conflict with the federal government. If you don't like the Constiution and you think that government is the way to go, then MOVE. Canada or England needs to be your home and don't come crying to us when Russia invades your ass and your pathetic ass military and save the planet mentality gets you no where. From your earlier posts you proved that you could give two fucks less about the debt and I can see why. Leftist don't think about the debt, they don't see the whole picture, just the good side of things not the negative side. The fact is that medicad, medicare, social security spend half of our GDP every year. The other fact is that it is projected that these programs will put us roughly 55 TRILLION in debt. These countries we owe it to are eventually going to get fucking pissed off at us and get there money, it's either that or they will just drop us all together, which would lead to a revolution among other things. This country is headed down an all to familiar road, Rome anyone?

1. What about LGBT Rights
LIFE,LIBERTY AND PURSUE OF HAPPINESS

[ZERO]

so why is every 1 so pissed off about this? seems like it's not going 2 really cost that much for the average person.. and this would lead 2 a healthyer and better workforce for your nation....?

They are mad becuase it will actually produce the reverse. This is seen in all other nations that have implemented similar systems. While US care is expensive (largely due to cost issues that have little to do with insurance alone) it is arguably the best in the world and this can be largely attributed to the non socialized system itself. However the larger issue is that by giving the gov power over health care they then can ague the power to regulate individuals health. This can be done in two ways, the everyone is = although some are just more = (soviet) or the well we are just going to need to control more of your life directly (fascist).

These two possibilities could be seen from an example problem such as the following: People that are overweight have higher risk of heart attack and are increasing the cost of healthcare. This is causing an emergency and will cost cost to go out of control and will prevent others from getting care that they need.

Solution 1) If BMI > X you are not covered

Solution 2) Regulate the food people can eat to prevent them from being fat.

While not intended problems like this always result from this sort of policy. While it is not necessarily the intentions of the "do gooders" this is what has played out in the cases that I am aware of with governments getting into these areas.

Another example can be seen here:
ca8Z__o52sk


“The Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself." -Benjamin Franklin

Please keep to the US constitution not the USSR constitution (I know they have similar letters but seriously they are different)

[loka]

This may be a double post but meh, I am a conservative, but I do believe that gay people have the right to get married. I could care less to be perfectly honest. I also believe that most drugs should be deregulated and legal, which is huge liberal view. I also believe in abortion, espcially if someone if raped and they do not want the child. I have my beliefs, but I cannot logically make any sense of left economic views, I have tried and tried and it just does not make logical sense. People actually want to give up there freedom of choice in order to get mandated to do things, it blows my mind.

Funny because my friend recently discovered a health issue, and hated this mandatory health thing in Massachusetts. Now she bites her tongue. If she hadn't gone and got health insurance before, the state would have denied her any coverage at all. The Massachusetts bill btw was passed by former Republican governor Mitt Romney who is stingly conservative. Both parties worked frivolously to get rid of certain outlines in the bill. It was then democrat governor Deval Patrick who cut out insurance to immigrants to cut close to 130 million in spending and since the deficit when Bush was still in office, had to add a few taxes to compensate for reduced spending. The thing that irks me now about this bill is the overwhelming stupidity of Republican versus Democrat. And Bears put it right. It's all this fear mongering and rather than piss and moan about leftist views, the United States as the whole 50 states needs to look at themselves and realize if each state is not going to take the time to take care after their citizens like Massachusetts dared to do, then the federal government is going to intervene regardless.

[Spasm]

They are mad becuase it will actually produce the reverse. This is seen in all other nations that have implemented similar systems. While US care is expensive (largely due to cost issues that have little to do with insurance alone) it is arguably the best in the world and this can be largely attributed to the non socialized system itself. However the larger issue is that by giving the gov power over health care they then can ague the power to regulate individuals health. This can be done in two ways, the everyone is = although some are just more = (soviet) or the well we are just going to need to control more of your life directly (fascist).

These two possibilities could be seen from an example problem such as the following: People that are overweight have higher risk of heart attack and are increasing the cost of healthcare. This is causing an emergency and will cost cost to go out of control and will prevent others from getting care that they need.

Solution 1) If BMI > X you are not covered

Solution 2) Regulate the food people can eat to prevent them from being fat.

While not intended problems like this always result from this sort of policy. While it is not necessarily the intentions of the "do gooders" this is what has played out in the cases that I am aware of with governments getting into these areas.

Another example can be seen here:
ca8Z__o52sk


“The Constitution only gives people the right to pursue happiness. You have to catch it yourself." -Benjamin Franklin

Please keep to the US constitution not the USSR constitution (I know they have similar letters but seriously they are different)

Thats the scary thing, if they really wanted to, the government could use healthcare to control almost every aspect of your life. Too fat??? Well we can't have that, now we have mandates on what you can eat. Smoking??? We can't have that it will raise costs now we are going to have to cut you from healthcare and guess what, a huge steep fine, just because you were smoking. Anything that affects your health they could have a say so over because it affects healthcare costs. Ne ways This is the preamble to the declaration of indepedence. Just for your people trying to correct me on spelling.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security."

[Spasm]

Funny because my friend recently discovered a health issue, and hated this mandatory health thing in Massachusetts. Now she bites her tongue. If she hadn't gone and got health insurance before, the state would have denied her any coverage at all. The Massachusetts bill btw was passed by former Republican governor Mitt Romney who is stingly conservative. Both parties worked frivolously to get rid of certain outlines in the bill. It was then democrat governor Deval Patrick who cut out insurance to immigrants to cut close to 130 million in spending and since the deficit when Bush was still in office, had to add a few taxes to compensate for reduced spending. The thing that irks me now about this bill is the overwhelming stupidity of Republican versus Democrat. And Bears put it right. It's all this fear mongering and rather than piss and moan about leftist views, the United States as the whole 50 states needs to look at themselves and realize if each state is not going to take the time to take care after their citizens like Massachusetts dared to do, then the federal government is going to intervene regardless.

Besides the big government ideals and what not. Heres a more personal issue with it.

If I want to spend my money on health insurance I will, I shouldnt be forced to have it and pay for it.

If I want to have a retirement then I should be saving my own money, I shouldn't be forced to do it. It's my choice, and if I am stupid and don't save money and I get old and I'm poor it's my own damn fault, I would not expect someone else to pay for my bills.

If I want to help people with healthcare thats less fortuante as me, then I will donate money to them to help them out, I shouldn't be forced to give them money.

The larger government gets the less of these choices I get to make with my hard earned money and more someone else gets to choose. I don't want to be told how to run my life, I want to run it myself.

It's kind of like drugs.. If I want to smoke weed and stay high all my life then I should be able to, it's not like I would be hurting anyone else. The government shouldn't be there to tell me what I can't do. If it ruins my life so be it, it's my damn fault and nobody elses.

[OMGBEARS]

If its free then why in the FUCK would they come here for healthcare, thats right because they cannot get it at their own country, use some common sense for fucks sake.

Are you saying that more public access would diminish quality? Or are you saying that people only come here for our health care because 30 million Americans can't afford insurance, millions more can't afford a chronic illness even with insurance, and through making that health care available to all Americans make it "less special?" You're not very clear with this point.


Good Point but http://www.bankruptcy-canada.ca/bankruptcy/causes-of-bankruptcy-in-canada.htm this study right here says that 1/3 of Canada bankruptcy is still due to medical problems, even with a single payer nationilized healthcare system. To say that its a direct result of our system would be false but nationilized healthcare does have that benefit, but does that benefit outweigh all the cons and debt assosciated with single payer healthcare, I think not.

It's not 1/3rd of bankruptcy, it's simply the 3rd reason out of 3. It could be 95% job loss, 4% divorce/separation, and 1% medical problems for all we know. That being said, it's due to not being able to work due to medical problems, and isn't not being able to pay the bills. Even if it was 33% of the bankruptcies, that would be 17% fewer bankruptcies due to medical problems. That's a couple hundred thousand people less filing and hundreds of thousands of their spouses and children who aren't affected. Seems worth it to me either way.


http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/25/how-much-money-do-insurance-companies-make-a-primer/ I just randomly found this article in google, this health insurance companies profit margin is 4.07 percent, that is nothing compared to other companies such as Microsoft (27.07 percent) Toyota (16.7 percent) McDonalds (44 percent), just to name a few.

Profits are different than profit margins. This still doesn't take into account that a government option would have much less cost associated with the premium, as a large portion of the money for insurance goes to administrative fees and advertising which wouldn't be there for a federal agency. I've worked as an insurance agent before and can tell you, our cut is very good.


World leaders thought the same before WWI and WWII. Ever heard of the League of Nations? Maybe you should because that is basically the same idea.

I also believe this idea is false although I don't have much proof besides looking into history, I will say that I think this mentality is how you get conquered.

Even though I completely disagree with your point here, I'll grant you the extremely large leap that world leaders thought that way before WWI or WWII. The League of Nations was the first real "alliance" between major nations which made World Wars (aka a war spanning the globe and containing many theaters of war) a real possibility.

However, they didn't have weapons that could wipe out all human civilization on planet earth. Mutually assured destruction is a theory that says two countries with nuclear arms will not assault each other for fear of an assault of equal or greater force. Their destruction is mutually assured should one of them attack the other via a "fail-dead" or "second-strike" which would act autonomously should the leadership be eliminated. There is a very clear reason why the USA didn't attack the USSR during the cold war: the USSR had nukes pointed at us. There is likewise a very clear reason the USSR didn't attack us during the cold war: we had nukes pointed at them. "Pointed at" is a metaphor, in actuality we had bombers in the air at all times as well as crude ICBMs.


Just an FYI that was a quick example, but I would be willing to look up information proving that your statement is directly false. I heard jokes of some of our Presidents being alcholics and nothing of a leader getting elected and becoming a great President.

I'm talking about the last 50 years. Since the invention of TV, and with it national broadcasts, politicians have been becoming more about words than action. Any time the government has become less "smoke and mirrors" and more transparent, politicians have been saying more about peace, economy, change than before.


This country was FOUNDED on beliefs of a small government and strong state and individual freedom. We are gave life liberty and the PURSUIT of happiness, we are not gave happiness just the pursuit of it. It's people like you OMGBEARS that go out and try and change the way this country was founded, to fundementally change how are forefathers chose this great nation to be. They made things certain ways because of the way the British Parliment treated them. There is an unsettling similarity between our conflict with England and our conflict with the federal government. If you don't like the Constiution and you think that government is the way to go, then MOVE. Canada or England needs to be your home and don't come crying to us when Russia invades your ass and your pathetic ass military and save the planet mentality gets you no where. From your earlier posts you proved that you could give two fucks less about the debt and I can see why. Leftist don't think about the debt, they don't see the whole picture, just the good side of things not the negative side. The fact is that medicad, medicare, social security spend half of our GDP every year. The other fact is that it is projected that these programs will put us roughly 55 TRILLION in debt. These countries we owe it to are eventually going to get fucking pissed off at us and get there money, it's either that or they will just drop us all together, which would lead to a revolution among other things. This country is headed down an all to familiar road, Rome anyone?

It's not that easy. Change is good. This country was likewise founded under the idea that only land owners could vote, blacks weren't considered part of "man kind", and women didn't have any rights, to name a few. Things change; this is a good thing. If the rest of the free world can afford universal healthcare for its citizens, then why can't we? We need to look at these cases as examples of success, instead of isolating ourselves from the rest of the world with such a zealous national pride.

You don't mention anything about the the two wars (not including the almsot laughable idea of a "war on terror") we're in which are costing American taxpayers billions upon billions each year? Again, if there is essentially a blank check when it comes to making war, then why is there such strong opposition to ensuring LIFE (not the pursuit of happiness, health doesn't fall into that) for each American?

[loka]

You guys are missing the point of why this bill came into fruition (after Ted Kennedy died). This was his baby. This was his goal. The fact that it got accomplished in his state wasn't enough. He wanted something like what Massachusetts have. If you knew who Ted Kennedy was, he was more into people who had nothing and devastatingly poor. This is not going to turn into a George Orwell 1984. There is still not enough information on this bill, and from the Massachusetts end, they are not clear what needs to be revised.

Kennedy's mission was that people would be more consciously aware of their health and start off after college or after high school. Considering this is where half of the health issues start to stem from. Obesity is the biggest issue that faces many Americans today. I used to weigh 300 pounds, and it was disgusting. Despite having health insurance, I never took the precautions to take care of my health until I visited a nutritionist. BTW many Americans have no idea how to eat sensibly, which is something I feel health insurance companies should promote, but these guys much rather have you insured and eat what little amount they are willing to cover and you'll have to pay the rest when you develop other health issues like diabetes etc etc. In other words, do you think this is going to change the general attitude of private health care? Because realistically it's not. And until this bill gets worked on (because laws change daily) this isn't something people should be getting pissed about.

Why are you required to get car insurance? To protect yourself and your car. Why are you required to wear a seat belt and if not you get ticketed? Because supposedly they save lives including yourself. Like in Massachusetts, you don't need to get health insurance... you'll just pay a fine. Just like speeding, or if you commit a crime, you pay a fine if you don't comply. Reality is you don't need to comply, you'll just pay a fine eventually. The government, state or federal has been telling you what to do for a long time. This really shouldn't be of shock value.

Hey, my SGT jokes that if you really want to get pissed we can invoke a mandatory draft.

[Spasm]

It's not that easy. Change is good. This country was likewise founded under the idea that only land owners could vote, blacks weren't considered part of "man kind", and women didn't have any rights, to name a few. Things change; this is a good thing. If the rest of the free world can afford universal healthcare for its citizens, then why can't we? We need to look at these cases as examples of success, instead of isolating ourselves from the rest of the world with such a zealous national pride.

You don't mention anything about the the two wars (not including the almsot laughable idea of a "war on terror") we're in which are costing American taxpayers billions upon billions each year? Again, if there is essentially a blank check when it comes to making war, then why is there such strong opposition to ensuring LIFE (not the pursuit of happiness, health doesn't fall into that) for each American?

I am done posting in this thread after this. But I bolded what I thought was interesting enough for at least one more response. All these countries have universal healthcare

UK National Debt 59.9% of GDP
Japan National Debt 194.4% of GDP
Norway National Debt 60.2% of GDP
Canada National Debt 62.3% of GDP
Italy National Debt 103.7% of GDP
Germany National Debt 62.6% of GDP
France National Debt 67.2% of GDP
Spain National Debt 43.1% of GDP

Anyways good debate guys going to bed soon.

[ZERO]

I do not half to drive a car and therefore do not need to comply with those laws as they are opt in. This is why back in the days of FDR they wanted a constitutional amendment to make it a right. Otherwise you can not require people to buy something just becuase they are alive.

Also I am convinced that you would be better off if the only car insurance people had was for serious injury and not physical damage to the the car or other shit like that. If you put all of that money away instead it would be of better use especially as the value of the car goes down over time your rates to not decrease but in the same token they will refuse to pay for repairs that are espensive relative to the value of the vehicle. Thus you are better off in the long run not having it for minor things.

In a way your could say something similar for health care. Lets say that my religion will not allow me to use modern meds, ect. So why would I want to or should half to pay into a health care system I will never use?

Also it was the new deal that really changed the way you saw politics in the nation as it shifted power from the local and state gov to the fed. This was extended thought the 50s and is why they are more about words than action. Before the elections that were important to people were more local and thus were driven by local action and things that people wanted done in their local area. Instead we have the attention on the fed level and becuase of its breath we end up with more talk and less action. The fed is not supposed to have this much power so that the states and local govs are free to try out different ideas and programs within their powers to meet the needs of the people in their area because every place is different. Our founders knew that now only was this the only way to ensure that diverse groups in a large nation are able to address their needs from government but also that they had the freedom to escape those changes by moving. This process ensured that programs and actions done by states and local governments would over time create winners and losers so that good ideas can be passed along and bad ones thrown out.

For example you would look at the policies of a failed state or city and see that those types of programs taxes, ect do not work. You could then look at growing states and cities and see how they did things. Your state could then for better or worse come up with its own idea.

[loka]

I wanted to point out that all the countries you mentioned have been ranked to atleast be top 10 in low mortality infant rates (Japan, Norway, France) higher life expectancy (Japan, Canada, France). The US has been cited for having one of the highest mortality rates in children. Just saying.

Do you know why insurance companies put physical damage to the vehicle? Because people would be suing left and right. I rather have the insurance companies deal with the dumb cunt that doesn't know how to drive than me going up to her and stabbing her in the face. Or you guys could move to Canada if you don't like it. Like I said, mandatory draft. It shuts people up fast. Be lucky you don't live in Israel.

[Scrubbleboo]

http://i.imgur.com/590Ev.png

[Scrubbleboo]

Sure are system is not perfect either

But

The vast majority of our population stays healthy, this means a healthy population can work more.

Also everywhere in the world services such as the police are socialized they have a mandate to protect and serve the people, doctors have the same mandate to protect life and serve the people.

In the end your health care benifits those who can afford it.

To this entire thread: Know what the fuck you are talking about before you go into a rant about TAXES! SOCIALISM! RAWR! If you don't read reliable news sources, spend a large chunk of your time doing research, or just plain have an opinion based on what those around you spout with vehement force out of their mouths you shouldn't speak up. I will be hard-pressed to believe the majority of you even pick up a newspaper other than to read the Sunday comics.

If you are under the age of 18 or have no job, do not even get me fucking started on how much of a vagina you sound like crying "BAWW TAXES".

Let me state, for the record (so official), I was in a pub about two years ago speaking to three Brit doctors about the health care system. Not only do they make more money for every person they convince to stop smoking, drinking or doing drugs but they also are encouraged to put an emphasis on what is necessary procedure during medical examinations. They found the US's health care system to be atrocious.

I also recently read an article which found that doctors in America order more unnecessary tests than any other country in the world because they receive more money from insurance companies as well as malpractice suits up the wazoo. Most blood work and MRI's are completely unnecessary in routine check-ups when these professionals are trained to determine what is ailing you.

Currently this is the ranking of the world's health care systems based on preventable deaths, life expectancy, health care performance, and total health expenditure of GDP.

1 France
2 Italy
3 San Marino
4 Andorra
5 Malta
6 Singapore
7 Spain
8 Oman
9 Austria
10 Japan
11 Norway
12 Portugal
13 Monaco
14 Greece
15 Iceland
16 Luxembourg
17 Netherlands
18 United Kingdom
19 Ireland
20 Switzerland
21 Belgium
22 Colombia
23 Sweden
24 Cyprus
25 Germany
26 Saudi Arabia
27 United Arab Emirates
28 Israel
29 Morocco
30 Canada
31 Finland
32 Australia
33 Chile
34 Denmark
35 Dominica
36 Costa Rica
37 United States of America

[Curdy]

It would appear Europe has owned America in the health care rankings.

[Kavinsky]

Makes you wonder what would happen if you did a bill and ted and brought everyone back from the signing of the constitution and droped them in modern day washington to see how warped the goverments becoming.

[Spasm]

I wanted to point out that all the countries you mentioned have been ranked to atleast be top 10 in low mortality infant rates (Japan, Norway, France) higher life expectancy (Japan, Canada, France). The US has been cited for having one of the highest mortality rates in children. Just saying.

Do you know why insurance companies put physical damage to the vehicle? Because people would be suing left and right. I rather have the insurance companies deal with the dumb cunt that doesn't know how to drive than me going up to her and stabbing her in the face. Or you guys could move to Canada if you don't like it. Like I said, mandatory draft. It shuts people up fast. Be lucky you don't live in Israel.

I don't have to own a car. I have to own health insurance. Big difference. All you guys pointing out big government is the way to go, I hope you see the day when things go to hell. Our founding fathers would turn over in their graves. I know you don't care, fucking pathetic.

"Our founders knew that now only was this the only way to ensure that diverse groups in a large nation are able to address their needs from government but also that they had the freedom to escape those changes by moving. "

-- The way things should be, the way they are supposed to be. Amen to that.

Oh BTW heres some fun facts for you guys.

""I live in Ontario where by the end of this year we will spend 50% of all revenue on health care. Within 12 years it will be 70%. We have rationing of care, elimination of services and are cutting jobs across the province. Not only that, most hospitals are running huge deficits. Private care is slowly creeping into our system to make up for the shortfalls. Some nut named 'mtthw' at 7:54am said we aren't bankrupt. He's out of his mind. Do not go down this road in the US... you will regret it."

Interesting... I was talking to an MRI tech about this garbage. She tole me that there are more MRI machines in Alaska, with a population of 660,000 than in all of Canada, population over 33,000,000. Tell ya anything?"

"The current federal income tax system hurts the lower income folks more than you realize. It is grossly unfair to low income folks. Here is why. The federal government places a tax on corporate profits, but corporations do not pay taxes. It is treated as a cost, and included in the price of the product. Every product that we buy has embedded corporate income tax, about 25% or more. You don't see it on the cashier ticket, but it's there. Low income earners pay that tax just like everyone else, when they buy something. But it is a larger percentage of the low income earner's budget than of anyone elses."

"The U. S. Leadership is planning to raise all corporate taxes. The price of everything you buy will go up to cover that tax cost increase."

" Foreclosure? Short Sale? When a bank accepts less than the original loan value, bail-out money from your pocket pays for someone elses loan!
Have you seen the adds where credit card companies accept less than the owner owes? Bail out money from your pocket pays for someone elses purchases!"

"# The U.S. Postal Service was established in 1775 - you have had 234 years to get it right; it is broke.

# Social Security was established in 1935 - you have had 74 years to get it right; it is broke.

# Fannie Mae was established in 1938 - you have had 71 years to get it right; it is broke.

# The "War on Poverty" started in 1964 - you have had 45 years to get it right; $1 trillion of our money is confiscated each year and transferred to "the poor"; it hasn't worked and our entire country is broke.

# Medicare and Medicaid were established in 1965 - you've had 44 years to get it right; they are broke.

# Freddie Mac was established in 1970 - you have had 39 years to get it right; it is broke.

# Trillions of dollars were spent in the massive political payoffs called TARP, the "Stimulus", the Omnibus Appropriations Act of 2009... none show any signs of working, although ACORN appears to have found a new sap: the American taxpayer.

# And finally, to set a new record: "Cash for Clunkers" was established in 2009 and went broke in 2009! It took good dependable cars (that were the best some people could afford) and replaced them with high-priced and less-affordable cars, mostly Japanese. A good percentage of the profits went out of the country. And the American taxpayers take the hit for Congress' generosity in burning three billion more of our dollars on failed experiments.

So with a perfect 100% failure rate and a record that proves that "services" you shove down our throats are failing faster and faster, you want Americans to believe you can be trusted with a government-run health care system?

20% of our entire economy? ... With all due respect, ARE YOU NUTS?

"Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law,' because the law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual." Thomas Jefferson"

The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all private property.
Karl Marx

[loka]

As the USofA has increased in size since the founding fathers and so has the government. That is why we have big government. 50 states representing. 12 territories representing.

Here is the analogy that I've learned in police ethics class. In the United States, most things are a privilege to have. It is not a right to have a drivers license, it is not a right to get a college education, it is not a right to own a gun in certain states, and you must go through an extensive background check before you gain that right to own a gun, it is not a right to vote, I can go on. Now the government is telling you, hey... remember when health insurance was a privilege to have? Well now as a citizen of the United States it is your right to health care. If you don't want health care, just pay the fine.

Your right, any state in the US has more MRI/CT scan machines than Canada. Canada's universal health system is differential though to that of the US. If I remember correctly from my cousins who live in Canada, prescriptions, doctor visits are free. This effects the cost of obtaining new equipment. I also believe that Canada does not have private health insurances who shell out money to hospitals, and in fact illegal for them to obtain money from private funding. That is the difference between Canada's system and our system. Only thing that is changing is your right to health care. Not the funding nor the private health care. Like I said, the law needs tweaking and all your getting from the media is dribble.

And your right, I don't care. I live in a state that has 5 of the best hospitals in the world. I don't care for politics. It's a waste of brain energy to argue the distinctions and similarities. Like I have been saying, I am already required by law to obtain health insurance. A law signed by a conservative who believed in little government. It's called hypocrisy, and I would hope all of you would know government works for only big corporations and their egos. Not for the people. Never has been, never will. And if you can't beat the system then join it.

Basically everything in the USA is broke your saying. You can QQ about it or learn that raging about it won't do a damn thing.

[ZERO]

I just wanted to point out that most rankings u read are pointless and are made for and bised toward nations with socalist medical syhstems. This can be seen when you read the reports in full text and see the methods used. Also it should be aparent when you look at the orginizations who have done most of these rankings and their adjenda.

[loka]

I just wanted to point out that most rankings u read are pointless and are made for and bised toward nations with socalist medical syhstems. This can be seen when you read the reports in full text and see the methods used. Also it should be aparent when you look at the orginizations who have done most of these rankings and their adjenda.

True unless it comes from non profit sources. Then your argument becomes debunked. WHO, US Census information, CAIA info. All government sources. Now media sources; don't make me laugh. Fox news is a pundit of conservative banter and satire. CNN is a pundit of liberal banter and satire. & somwhere in between the BBC, blacklistednews etc. If you don't shop around to look at statistics and just look at one source you fail.

[ZERO]

Usually the one people use is from the UN at least from what I have seen... although here is an article I came across: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125608054324397621.html

"they used these literacy and income data to estimate health performance."

[gas.]

Makes you wonder what would happen if you did a bill and ted and brought everyone back from the signing of the constitution and droped them in modern day washington to see how warped the goverments becoming.
They'd be too busy making sure their slaves were working hard to take the trip.

Times change, eh?

[ZERO]

Oh god and now we get into the old founding fathers were evil slave owners and therefore everything they say is evil argument. (I am not saying your actually making this argument) This sort of misleading education is one of the larger contributors to the problems facing the direction of our nation. Our in ability to not only educate the public overall in school and our total failure to accurately portray the facts of history have played into the hand of modern ignorance. For example when I started to read history on my own to get the facts I constantly had to stop and go no, no fucking way. Then after checking the sources and seeing it was true going how the fuck have I not been told about this! (Largely seen in the us history of the early 20th century which is brushed over even in the AP classes I took.)

Now back to the topic at hand:

I came across a more detailed paper discussing the problems with the rankings listed earlier in this thread: http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:tcoFVpJfEusJ:www.ciaonet.org/pbei/cato/cato10596/cato10596.pdf+problems+in+healthcare+ranking&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESiCw5LQL3Nzm0JGr5dWV9XxhwsCImueQgi5HOP4 UQVbInV6eem5yFcZNjA6pvhWAWJstWK9crqvaYIe7e2YtdAV6i S6u7FBmij-zTT4dLGgBZyxl4vWA9eUcwrDNtjkNIT5PSI1&sig=AHIEtbSPg4HGeuDWfpK3-es9kKN53GlvAw

Also as far as the founders go you can read though their individual works from the time and get a good seance for how they viewed the world and even their motives in founding the United States.


In addition here are links to the WHO docs that people seem to be pulling data from in their entirety(an easy 230 page or so read):
http://www.who.int/whr/2000/en/whr00_en.pdf
http://www.who.int/healthinfo/paper28.pdf

Note that the second link is only 13 pages with some big pics and contains much of the actual data and explanation that the longer 213+ page report is based on. If your short on time just look over the second link :wtg:

[gas.]

Oh god and now we get into the old founding fathers were evil slave owners and therefore everything they say is evil argument. (I am not saying your actually making this argument.
... what?

I wasn't making any argument. Simply pointing out that using the point of bringing the founding fathers to the current United States for shock factor doesn't hold up at all. It's a completely different time. You base the country on the principals that spawned it, not what was the "letter of the law". The country would be half the size it is now if we followed their lead to the letter instead of doing what we believe is best for the country as a whole.

[ZERO]

I know you were not hence "I am not saying your actually making this argument."

I was pointing out that there are some who will read that and think you are becuase there actually are people as hard as this may be to believe who actually believe this.

Actually if your read the federalist 10 you will see how the bias for the organizational structure of our gov is to prevent the masses from "doing what we believe is best for the country as a whole." This is becuase the founders were largely afraid of people making decisions based on what they believed was best for them at that time. In order to prevent this the gov was structured the way that it is in order to slow down changes and to also allow the people making those votes and decisions separated from the general masses.

[Kavinsky]

Gas that's besides the point, that was a peripheral thing that didnt get taken care of in time and eventually became a serious part of the south's economy.

Even then during the civil war it wasnt the main focus of the battle between the north and the south. it was a war over economics and the slaves were a serious part of the souths economy and when they tried to take that away it was one of many things that irked the south and eventually caused the civil war.

My point is that they worked so fucking hard not to create a tyrannical one sided government and it seems to be becoming just that, ever so slowly except with 2 parties that are just as bad as one another.

[ZERO]

If you read common sense pain goes into how it is large governments themselves that lead to tyranny this is also the same idea that lead Washington to say "“Government is not reason, it is not eloquence, it is force; like fire, a troublesome servant and a fearful master. Never for a moment should it be left to irresponsible action.”"

Voltaire had it right: “The art of government is to make two-thirds of a nation pay all it possibly can pay for the benefit of the other third.”

I think this sums up the entire thread:
Supreme Court Justice Jackson, “It is not the function of our Government to keep the citizen from falling into error; it is the function of the citizen to keep the Government from falling into error.”

[loka]

Gas that's besides the point, that was a peripheral thing that didnt get taken care of in time and eventually became a serious part of the south's economy.

Even then during the civil war it wasnt the main focus of the battle between the north and the south. it was a war over economics and the slaves were a serious part of the souths economy and when they tried to take that away it was one of many things that irked the south and eventually caused the civil war.

My point is that they worked so fucking hard not to create a tyrannical one sided government and it seems to be becoming just that, ever so slowly.

What?
Slavery was not the main cause of the Civil War, nor money. POWER. It was about having POWER. The South would have loved to use the excuse of slavery, but there was already tension between the Confederacy and the Union leading up to slavery, and it was more about militaristic power than slavery. The founding fathers wanted an end to slavery, but also wanted state unions to use their better judgment to abolish slavery. The civil war CHANGED the outcome of leaving power to the people and the STATE because the SOUTH thought "fuck the founding fathers, the constitution of 'we the people', and the Union; we can have slaves." It was about the hierarchy of leading STATE laws over FEDERAL. Which the North fully thought that FEDERAL laws should always be above STATE laws. Thanks to the Civil war, this is now the case unless both the state and federal laws are similar.

1. Taxation
2. State rights
3. Sectionalism
and somewhere in between "slavery" can be attached as a fallacy to the "big cause" of the slavery, because truth is slavery was dying out long before the Civil war began because of technology. Emancipation of Proclamation began in 1862. Civil war: 1861. And only 2.5% of the 4 million slaves of the south actually worked on plantations (see 1860 census)

[Kavinsky]

I agree but I had to point out the obivious flaw in gus' statment and either they didnt mention the state laws vs federal thing in high school or I didnt pick up on it when we were covering it.

[loka]

I learned that in college in American law and History class. The constitution will always be the supreme law of the land along with federal laws (of course except in Native American reservations; they have their own Tribe Laws). It was about state rights because the CSA (Confederacy State of America 7 seceded states) versus the United States of America (23 states). The truth is the majority of southerners who owned slaves were the politicians. Southerners were too poor to even own 1 slave. Hence why I mentioned earlier "the government works for big companies and their egos." The civil war was fueled more by a war of politicians than the public beliefs of two different states.

[ZERO]

Yea in APus we learned that it was not over slavery but states rights, although I know that most HS will teach that it is about slavery b/c most of our education system is not about teaching.

[acolyte_to_jippity]

Yea in APus we learned that it was not over slavery but states rights, although I know that most HS will teach that it is about slavery b/c most of our education system is not about teaching.

lol, AP us history.

loved that class. Mrs. Masty taught us that the south was screwed because it's products were cotton, tobacco, a little bit of sugar, rice, and indigo.

Sung (kid in class) complained that that's not too bad, and she said something like "yeah, you don't eat cotton sung, and what are you going to do with the rest?" and he replies "what about the indigo?" and she says "indigo? indigo's a dye" he says "i know! and you also have cotton!"


sung was an idiot...

[loka]

Yea in APus we learned that it was not over slavery but states rights, although I know that most HS will teach that it is about slavery b/c most of our education system is not about teaching.

If you read most of the text books that come out, they proclaim the main reason was for slavery, and Lincoln was single-handedly responsible for freeing the slaves. This isn't accurate. The issue isn't mainly that schools don't teach. It's that the education board who orders the text books don't take the time to look at what's in the text books. Text books aren't accurate. They are written by other professors with Ph.D's in their respected subject. With those professors come different ideas and philosophies that they feel is responsible and what isn't. When I was a freshman in high school, I was encouraged to read this book called "Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong." If anything, it clarifies what authors of American History text books like to sugar coat. Going into college, they seem to broaden the sense of the realities of American History, especially if history becomes your major... you basically have to erase everything that was taught to you in high school.

[gas.]

I agree but I had to point out the obivious flaw in gus' statment.
What flaw was that? I wasn't speaking about slavery at all with that statement, rather the belief that states would be allowed to secede if they wish.

[gas.]

If you read most of the text books that come out, they proclaim the main reason was for slavery, and Lincoln was single-handedly responsible for freeing the slaves. This isn't accurate. The issue isn't mainly that schools don't teach. It's that the education board who orders the text books don't take the time to look at what's in the text books. Text books aren't accurate. They are written by other professors with Ph.D's in their respected subject. With those professors come different ideas and philosophies that they feel is responsible and what isn't. When I was a freshman in high school, I was encouraged to read this book called "Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong." If anything, it clarifies what authors of American History text books like to sugar coat. Going into college, they seem to broaden the sense of the realities of American History, especially if history becomes your major... you basically have to erase everything that was taught to you in high school.
Basically. Lincoln only freed the southern slaves and did so in an attempt to cripple the southern economy with hopes of an uprising.

[mastercheff]

Fuck this healthcare bullshit and fuck you democrats in Washington.

lol American education is down the gutter if you ask me. In Europe they actually teach kids how to use knives and forks and thats still in elementary school. I honestly could care less about this new healthcare thingy but i'll go with the crowd this time. :cheer::cheer::hug:

[ZERO]

I am sure they will teach us how to eat in school soon too b/c we can not be providing healthcare for people who do not know how to eat.

[A Baby Panda]

I am sure they will teach us how to eat in school soon too b/c we can not be providing healthcare for people who do not know how to eat.

Well everyone could wheel around a personal IV.

[Spasm]

"The true danger to democracy is the radical liberal policies of Barack Obama and his willing accomplices in the House and Senate like Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi and Chuck Schumer. A recent CNN poll found that 62% of Americans now believe that the federal government is so large that it threatens their individual freedom. Doesn't that bother the liberal? A CBS poll on Wednesday found that 56% of Americans want the Republicans to continue their legal challenges to Obama's health care bill. Why? Because of both process and substance.

Contrary to the views of the liberal, the American people are not stupid. They know that what we just witnessed in the passage of the health care bill was Washington politics at its worst. A highly unpopular bill negotiated behind closed doors and out of the public view; Democrat leaders changing the rules in the middle of the game through the use of the reconciliation process to thwart legitimate challenges to the bill, and the outright bribery of members of the House and Senate through the use of earmarks to buy enough votes to ensure its passage. It was a disgrace, and the American people saw it for what it was - a naked power grab more appropriate for a banana republic then a democratic-republic.

Then they saw the substance. Passage by fiat of a government takeover of 1/6 of the American economy. Government bureaucrats now making decision about who gets what services using who knows what standards. And let's face it. The American people are smart enough to know that the government has never run a social program that it hasn't run into the ground. The notion that we can add 32 million people to the health care system, charge only the wealthiest 2% higher taxes and somehow expect not only that it will not increase the deficit, but will somehow reduce it is patently absurd. The CBO numbers broke even only becuase the taxes start right away, but the expenses don't start until 2014. Ten years of revenue and only six years of expenses. The dirty little secret is that by 2020, the program will be flooded by red ink and taxes, in some form, will be raised on everyone in order to pay for it.

Finally, the American people know that the federal government does not have the Constitutional authority to require you to purchase anything under penalty of sanctions or jail. This is still America, not Communist China and actually, come to think of it, Barack Obama is rapidly making this country less capitalist than Communist China. Barack Obama now runs two of the three U.S. car manufacturers. He now, for all intents and purposes, runs many of the major banking institutions like Citibank. He has put in place a "pay Czar" whose job is to dictate how much private sector companies can pay to their executives. Barack Obama was not elected to fundamentally change the basic free-market principles upon which this Nation was founded.

The vast majority of the American people believe that the proper role of government is to only what is necessary to ensure that we have the opportunity to utilize our God-given talents to create a better life for ourselves and for our families. Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi, Harry Reid and the rest of the liberal majorities in Congress not only don't agree, but are doing everything possible to thwart the will of the People.

Violence is not appropriate, but the American people are pissed off by the arrogance of the Democrats and something tells me our Founding Fathers, who fought a Revolution for less, would be first in line to vote them out in November. I say good for them."

Thought this was a relative read to our debate :)

[OMGBEARS]

Where is the source for that article, Spasm?

[loka]

Where is the source for that article, Spasm?

Looks like an op/ed, which an op/ed is not something you want to call a source. It's an editorial of opinions.

[Scrubbleboo]

Looks like an op/ed, which an op/ed is not something you want to call a source. It's an editorial of opinions.

That is news today- opinions. Stop listening to CNN or Fox. Your brains will melt.

[DJ_MikeyRevile]

fucking liberal pieces of shit good for nothing bitches FUCK!

now i get to pay for health care that i was getting for free anyways,, god damn hippie liberal democratic fucks

[Kavinsky]

Indeed CNN is notoriously full of shit, the only somewhat decient new source I've found out there is the BBC, their website I mean since they seem to cover the story in its entirety and show of the opinion of both sides most of the time.

[Curdy]

BBC ftw!

[Spasm]

I think it's near impossible to write a piece of news that isn't biased to some degree. I copypasted that from a comment I read in a news story. Most of it I know is fact except the first part of it, the polls, I really don't know about that, and I am too lazy to look it up. I just thought it was a good read for this discussion.

[Scrubbleboo]

I think it's near impossible to write a piece of news that isn't biased to some degree. I copypasted that from a comment I read in a news story. Most of it I know is fact except the first part of it, the polls, I really don't know about that, and I am too lazy to look it up. I just thought it was a good read for this discussion.

I think it's near impossible to believe that you cannot write a legitimate news article without bias. You can certainly write an article that contains bias in the mere facts you provide, but it is certainly not near impossible to write an article without bias.

Facts=/=opinions. Lace an article or report with facts and viola! REAL NEWS!:wtg:

There seems to be a rampant disease running wild in the States that makes people believe the shit they hear on the news is constructive observations rather than an avoidance of the truth.

[StarsMine]

I think it's near impossible to believe that you cannot write a legitimate news article without bias. You can certainly write an article that contains bias in the mere facts you provide, but it is certainly not near impossible to write an article without bias.

Facts=/=opinions. Lace an article or report with facts and viola! REAL NEWS!:wtg:

There seems to be a rampant disease running wild in the States that makes people believe the shit they hear on the news is constructive observations rather than an avoidance of the truth.

It is near impossible to have an article with out bias. dont give us that bullshit.

[Scrubbleboo]

It is near impossible to have an article with out bias. dont give us that bullshit.

Prove it? Tough guy :D. How can facts be biased if you're just reporting facts?

[loka]

It is near impossible to have an article with out bias. dont give us that bullshit.

It actually isn't. Although the only real non-bias articles have been police and fire logs that get published. They teach you in journalism to report the truth first. Your opinions are only indicative to articles when they involve reviews, editorials, and political insights. Problem is now we have people in editorial powers and different news organizations who are no longer interested in fueling non-biased information. As a former journalism major, it is one of the reasons why I stopped majoring in journalism. The truth and facts were never going to be published as long as you had an editor in chief and an owner who was only interested in one party propaganda. And since the internet is dismantling the newspaper industry slowly, they will feed into any type of bias as possible to sell newspapers.

[Spasm]

I think it's near impossible to believe that you cannot write a legitimate news article without bias. You can certainly write an article that contains bias in the mere facts you provide, but it is certainly not near impossible to write an article without bias.

Facts=/=opinions. Lace an article or report with facts and viola! REAL NEWS!:wtg:

There seems to be a rampant disease running wild in the States that makes people believe the shit they hear on the news is constructive observations rather than an avoidance of the truth.

Actually I could write you a news piece thats nothing but fact, but something that does not tell the whole truth. I could give you facts about healthcare being great and wonderful, proving it helps millions get healthcare and just leave out its cost & regulations. That would be nothing but fact, but biased.

[StarsMine]

Prove it? Tough guy :D. How can facts be biased if you're just reporting facts?

Context

[Kavinsky]

Joe Friday: Just the facts ma'am

the key is to report every piece of information for the reader or watcher to so that he or she make his own decision about it.

Not to edit it based on the reporters or the editors feelings about the matter, which is what I'm certain the cnn people do all the time along with many other news shows and websites.

[loka]

Editors will want to edit content for sensationalism, and they do it sometimes without the reporters consent. This I know. CNN isn't the only news media that does it. Fox does it 10x worse. In fact, the only reason why the military (specifically Army) uses Fox News is to plan and delegate any attacks or missions. In fact, one of the SGTs who I work out with was a tanker. His unit was assigned with a reporter from CNN when Operation Iraqi Freedom was just getting started. The CNN reporter falsely reported the unit he was with suffered massive casualties while fighting insurgents. The real story was they held off insurgents, and when the unit found out about it, the unit, and the Army basically kicked the reporter out. He also had the same experience with a Fox News reporter, which is why they limited so many reporters to the front-lines.

[SprayandPrey]

UK Health Care
Dying Patient Was Refused A Glass Of Water


http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Dying-Patient-Forced-To-Ring-Hospital-Switchboard-To-Get-A-Glass-Of-Water/Article/201003415587326?lpos=UK_News_First_Home_Article_Te aser_Region_4&lid=ARTICLE_15587326_Dying_Patient_Forced_To_Ring_ Hospital_Switchboard_To_Get_A_Glass_Of_Water_

[SprayandPrey]

UK Health Care
Hospital patients are routinely treated in TV rooms, mop cupboards and corridors because hospitals are too full, a new survey has claimed.


http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Nursing-Times-Survey-Claims-Hospital-Patients-Are-Routinely-Treated-In-TV-Rooms-And-Mop-Cupboards/Article/201003215569908?lpos=UK_News_Article_Related_Conte nt_Region_2&lid=ARTICLE_15569908_Nursing_Times_Survey_Claims_H ospital_Patients_Are_Routinely_Treated_In_TV_Rooms _And_Mop_Cupboards

[SprayandPrey]

UK Health Care
'Lives At Risk Due To NHS Target Culture'
The lives of patients are being put at risk because hospitals still put targets before safety, a damning MPs' report has said.


http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/NHS-Hospitals-Putting-Targets-Before-Safety-A-Report-By-The-Health-Committee-On-Patients-Safety-Says/Article/200907115328424?lpos=UK_News_Article_Related_Conte nt_Region_8&lid=ARTICLE_15328424_NHS_Hospitals_Putting_Targets _Before_Safety_A_Report_By_The_Health_Committee_On _Patients_Safety_Says

[SprayandPrey]

UK Health Care
'NHS Cashing In On Hospital Car Parking'
"No one is denying the need for hospitals to cover their costs," he said. "But that doesn't mean they can use hidden charges to help themselves out of financial black holes."

We need an urgent review into whether hardworking doctors and nurses and the chronically ill should be paying these charges at all.



http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/NHS-Hospitals-Raking-In-The-Cash-From-Parking-Charges---Made-110m-Last-Year-Say-Liberal-Democrats/Article/200909415391367?lpos=UK_News_Article_Related_Conte nt_Region_5&lid=ARTICLE_15391367_NHS_Hospitals_Raking_In_The_C ash_From_Parking_Charges_-_Made_%3F110m_Last_Year_Say_Liberal_Democrats

[SprayandPrey]

UK Health Care
Abuse Fears Over Access To Patients' Records
"The authors are also confused, muddling the distinction between paper files, which allow any member of staff to see confidential information, and new electronic systems which strictly control access to those directly involved in a patient's healthcare.


http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Around-100000-Non-Medical-NHS-Have-Access-To-Patient-Medical-Records-New-Figures-Suggest/Article/201003415582546?lpos=UK_News_Article_Related_Conte nt_Region_2&lid=ARTICLE_15582546_Around_100%2C000_Non-Medical_NHS_Have_Access_To_Patient_Medical_Records %2C_New_Figures_Suggest

[SprayandPrey]

UK Health Care
Dental System 'Failing Patients'
Changes in the way dentists are paid mean they effectively have no financial incentive to give appropriate treatment, the Commons Health Select Committee said.

Under the new contract, dentists receive an agreed annual sum rather than being paid for each individual treatment.



LET ME POST THAT PART AGAIN
Changes in the way dentists are paid mean they effectively have no financial incentive to give appropriate treatment

Changes in the way dentists are paid mean they effectively have no financial incentive to give appropriate treatment



http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Health/Dentists-Contract-Failing-To-Improve-Services-For-Patients-Says-Commons-Health-Select-Committee/Article/200807115019591?lpos=Health_Article_Related_Conten t_Region_9&lid=ARTICLE_15019591_Dentists_Contract_Failing_To_ Improve_Services_For_Patients_Says_Commons_Health_ Select_Committee

[SprayandPrey]

UK Health Care
Dentists' Faith In NHS Decaying
One in four dentists is planning to leave the NHS, according to a poll of dentists for the Dental Practitioners' Association.

"This is exactly the reverse of what was promised by the Department of Health.


http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Health/Dentists-NHS-Decay-Rotten/Article/200807415061368?lpos=Health_Article_Related_Conten t_Region_7&lid=ARTICLE_15061368_Dentists_NHS_Decay_Rotten

[SprayandPrey]

UK Health Care
Public Giving Up On NHS Treatment



Let me post that one more time

Public Giving Up On NHS Treatment
Public Giving Up On NHS Treatment
Public Giving Up On NHS Treatment
Public Giving Up On NHS Treatment


Britons are giving up on NHS dentists, with a million more people saying they have not been to see one since the Government brought in a new contract in April 2006.

The figures suggest that almost half the population of England did not see an NHS dentist in the two years to September 2007.


http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Dentists-Public-Giving-Up-On-NHS-Treatment/Article/20080431313180?lpos=Home_Article_Related_Content_R egion_9&lid=ARTICLE_1313180_Dentists%3A_Public_Giving_Up_O n_NHS_Treatment

[Curdy]

pffft sky news what a joke.

[OMGBEARS]

Post padding as an effort to amplify a point: 5 minutes of mindless scrolling.

Reading conservative talking point after conservative talking point: 20 minutes of mindless scrolling.

Finally arriving on...


pffft sky news what a joke.

Priceless!

But srs, Curdy is British (or some other hilarious accent); he knows what he's talking about. There are media outlets in every country which you can trust, and others which you can't.

P.S. You type like Glen Beck talks, Spray. I'd be careful if I were you; you might be going INSANE!

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_8mfw7opefpU/Sp0XKI1KbWI/AAAAAAAAA64/VIAKvUgbJ-Y/s400/beckcry.jpg

[Curdy]

Thats true you would be suprised about what dosen't get reported in the news.

For instance America's missing nukes!

Edit.

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[Kavinsky]

spray and pray if thats same the way you try and get points across in real life god help ya'

[loka]

Thats true you would be suprised about what dosen't get reported in the news.

For instance America's missing nukes!

Edit.

<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/cMwZ76QB7uk&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/cMwZ76QB7uk&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="560" height="340"></embed></object>

Everyone in America knows Fox News shows are not actual reporting. Like I mentioned earlier, a majority of the Fox News coverage is trolling for satire and the shock effect. Those who watch Fox News and taken verbatim has the intelligence of a fruit. I know people though who watch it for the lulz because they can't find someone who thinks just as stupidly as they do. I can get a show on Fox News and spew all this hate mongering for anyone. That's how Fox rolls.

[Scrubbleboo]

Actually I could write you a news piece thats nothing but fact, but something that does not tell the whole truth. I could give you facts about healthcare being great and wonderful, proving it helps millions get healthcare and just leave out its cost & regulations. That would be nothing but fact, but biased.

If you read my post it clearly stated there is this possibility of this happening.

@Starsmine: Merely stating "context" and not giving me proof?

Context, (yes, I understand what you meant) while being a completely rational argument still does not have a counterpoint to my post.

@Sprayandprey: You could have easily posted every article into one post with their explanations attached and still get your point across. I imagined you sitting there at your computer screaming at the top of your lungs "I AM RIGHT, THIS IS NOT FOR DEBATE, IMMA GET MY POINT ACROSS BY POSTING TOO MUCH SO PEOPLE WILL LISTEN TO ME." If anyone was going to genuinely read your posts and take them into account they refrained from doing so after seeing 2 pages worth of useless posts. This thread is about healthy debate, not shoving your opinion down everyone's throat. No one here is angry at anyone else for posting disagreements. You're making yourself look hotheaded.

Besides, almost any of the incidents you are crying about could happen anywhere, to anyone. Human beings by nature have tendencies towards both good and evil. :wtg:

[ZERO]

The fact that people quote a commentary show that even has declared many times that it is not a news show and then cry about how it is not reporting the news like a news show only proves how ignorant people will be in order to prove a point. This is like when today I read a work called feeding frenzy about the media in politics. Sure the work had some good points but I was loling on the ground when the analogy was about the kayos of when sharks are on a feeding frenzy. Clearly this person does not know that sharks are actually very orderly when they are going to get a free meal. Now while this does not affect his other statements it does make him look a bit stupid. The point is that if you say something you should at least try to check if it is actually true.

Glen beck was also on CNN for a few years where he ran his show much the same way yet where are the clips clamming that headline news does not report the news becuase of his cometary show.

I guess that ABC does not report the news either becuase they also run the View. I guess there is no such thing as news because there is always some show on a given station where it is just commentary on the news but not actual reporting of it.

[Scrubbleboo]

The fact that people quote a commentary show that even has declared many times that it is not a news show and then cry about how it is not reporting the news like a news show only proves how ignorant people will be in order to prove a point. This is like when today I read a work called feeding frenzy about the media in politics. Sure the work had some good points but I was loling on the ground when the analogy was about the kayos of when sharks are on a feeding frenzy. Clearly this person does not know that sharks are actually very orderly when they are going to get a free meal. Now while this does not affect his other statements it does make him look a bit stupid. The point is that if you say something you should at least try to check if it is actually true.

Glen beck was also on CNN for a few years where he ran his show much the same way yet where are the clips clamming that headline news does not report the news becuase of his cometary show.

I guess that ABC does not report the news either becuase they also run the View. I guess there is no such thing as news because there is always some show on a given station where it is just commentary on the news but not actual reporting of it.

There is no such thing as news anymore, unless it's definition has changed :D.

People are ignorant fucks, I say just let them have at it.

[Kavinsky]

"We think we've come so far. Torture of heretics, burning of witches, it's all ancient history. And then, before you can blink an eye, suddenly it threatens to start all over again."
"I believed her... I helped her... I did not see what she was."
"Mr. Worf, villains who twirl their mustaches are easy to spot. Those who clothe themselves in good deeds are well-camouflaged."
"I think, after yesterday, people will not be so ready to trust her."
"Maybe. But she or someone like her will always be with us, waiting for the right climate in which to flourish. Spreading fear in the name of righteousness. Vigilance, Mr. Worf. That is the price we have to continually pay."

From TNG's the drumhead episode, I wonder how much of that really applies to todays politics and news programs.

[OMGBEARS]

The fact that people quote a commentary show that even has declared many times that it is not a news show and then cry about how it is not reporting the news like a news show only proves how ignorant people will be in order to prove a point. This is like when today I read a work called feeding frenzy about the media in politics. Sure the work had some good points but I was loling on the ground when the analogy was about the kayos of when sharks are on a feeding frenzy. Clearly this person does not know that sharks are actually very orderly when they are going to get a free meal. Now while this does not affect his other statements it does make him look a bit stupid. The point is that if you say something you should at least try to check if it is actually true.

Glen beck was also on CNN for a few years where he ran his show much the same way yet where are the clips clamming that headline news does not report the news becuase of his cometary show.

I guess that ABC does not report the news either becuase they also run the View. I guess there is no such thing as news because there is always some show on a given station where it is just commentary on the news but not actual reporting of it.

My point by even bringing up Glen Beck is the fact that Spray wasn't actually making any points and was simply sensationalizing his point in order to make it seem valid.

Glen Beck is just one of many reasons why the Bulk of Fox News is a complete joke in terms of being "fair and balanced" if you want to really get into that whole discussion. That's another thread, though.

[Curdy]

Also if they have stated they are not a news outlet, they should stop acting like a news outlet.

It reminds me of faux news and their mass effect coverage.

which was utterly retarded.

[loka]

Look at it this way. Larry King is not a NEWS show. It's a journalist interviewing people spewing out their own ideas or happenings in the world. NBC had that terrible "To Catch A Predator" 'news' show that featured an investigative reporter. That isn't a NEWS show.

There is different types of journalists and reporters. The shows within CNN, NBC, FOX, CBS, ABC, and the other American news outlets have the right to exist. They are shows that have some interesting stories and articles. Then you have shows like Rush Limbaugh, Glen Beck, Hannity, O'Reilly, etc that appeal to certain pom pom waving one party lunatics who take on all news issues and distort them into their own opinions and views. These are political satire shows and are NEVER to be taken verbatim as I already had mentioned. They don't need a "warning not literal news content" label on them. It's clear cut throat common sense it's one person taking their own view on news stories. It just so happens their shows are on a news network.

[XxMastagunzxX]

Look at it this way. Larry King is not a NEWS show. It's a journalist interviewing people spewing out their own ideas or happenings in the world. NBC had that terrible "To Catch A Predator" 'news' show that featured an investigative reporter. That isn't a NEWS show.

There is different types of journalists and reporters. The shows within CNN, NBC, FOX, CBS, ABC, and the other American news outlets have the right to exist. They are shows that have some interesting stories and articles. Then you have shows like Rush Limbaugh, Glen Beck, Hannity, O'Reilly, etc that appeal to certain pom pom waving one party lunatics who take on all news issues and distort them into their own opinions and views. These are political satire shows and are NEVER to be taken verbatim as I already had mentioned. They don't need a "warning not literal news content" label on them. It's clear cut throat common sense it's one person taking their own view on news stories. It just so happens their shows are on a news network.

Yeah but that show was hilarious!!!

[Spasm]

Didn't someone kill themselves because of to catch a predator lol

[loka]

It also falsely accused innocent people, or prevented those who were indeed actual sex offenders from going to jail because of entrapment and other legal disputes. That show ruined lives and let some serious sex offenders go free.

[acolyte_to_jippity]

they might have gone free, but remember loka, why shows like America's Most Wanted (my fav. show btw, John Walsh is my hero. I'd vote for him any day) exist/are popular. Their faces, voices, everything is now out there on national TV. Sex offenders are safe when they're unknown. now, however, everyone'll know them as "That guy who was on that show. He's the one who and walked in the door completely naked holding a 6-pack of beer and tied a bow to his cock for the (what he thought was a) 14-year old to suck off"

their lives are over, even if they're not in jail.

[loka]

AMW works with law enforcement agencies and a hot-line is involved. Totally different legal ramifications. TCAP was enforcing the law into their own hands without law enforcement help. They eventually got enforcement if it was a sex offender who was a level 3 sex offender. Even then, what they did is entrapment. It's why law enforcement hates, HATES groups that act like children on the internet and forward the internet conversations to local police department (which is what TCAP was doing). It misconstrues the entire legal system to allow a good lawyer to scream entrapment and other poisonous fruit bullshit which you cannot do in law enforcement. It's why TCAP is no longer on the air. NBC didn't see the legal suits that could follow this until they actually saw the shows content.

[acolyte_to_jippity]

i'm not saying it's a good thing these people are on the street still...far from it. i'd have been waiting w/ a sawed off and capped their knees or something (higher perhaps) and leave. but if you saw someone on that show, and then they moved in next door to you...how much do you think they could get away with?

[loka]

Statistically speaking. Most sex offenders are level ones. I probably live next to one and I will never know because his crime was public urination. The sex offender laws are new and are not in code with the legal system we have. That said, you take matters into your own hands on a sex offender, you go to jail, and the sex offender collects victim compensation from you. That's the way the legal system works. You would also know if a sex offender lived next door to you because they have to register. If they don't they get arrested. There is no reason for taking matters into your own hands or using unprofessional shows like TCAP as a guideline to see if you can catch a pervert. These guys are already registered. Leave the catching sex offenders to law enforcement. Chris Hansen was an idiot for the idea.

[ZERO]

... Thus sex offenders and Fox News destroyed the country by writing the health care bill becuase news stations run shows that are not news and even the news shows are sometimes just commentary. On that note the new bill also took over the student loan industry, who should we blame this on?

[OMGBEARS]

There are idiots in this world that take the hate spewed by people like Glen Beck as 100% fact and NOT opinion.

It is, of course, your opinion that writing the health care bill "destroyed the country" -- I, of course, disagree. I like the idea of the student loan industry being completely controlled by the government, as most student loans are federally subsidized ANYWAYS. It's actually a very efficient system as I've interacted with them on a regular basis with my own schooling. A lot of times it takes 0 involvement from start to finish from actually signing the dotted line. Federal take over means one thing to me: lower APR and thus; lower interest rates overall.