Symbiotic 9/17/11 12:05 AM ET, STEAM_0:0:19432712

[brett friggin favre]

Name in Game: Symbiotic
Steam-ID: STEAM_0:0:19432712
Where: WCS
Link to ban: http://www.ibisgaming.com/sourcebans/index.php?p=banlist&advSearch=STEAM_0:0:19432712&advType=steamid&Submit
Reason for perma ban: wallhacking, aim toggle? (prim. headshots through smoke, consistently)

DEMOS: (first one is a short demo i took for convenience, has him getting 2 headshots through smoke, second is from source tv.)

This guy has been around wcs for the past few days, getting headshots through smoke. First time was a few days ago on dust2, he got 2 headshots simultaneously spraying through smoke (don't remember exact day or time, otherwise i'd attach that one too >.<) and other people have been saying they've been getting headshotted through smoke by this guy. The tipoff with him is that he ALWAYS gets kills when he shoots through smoke, and it's ALWAYS a headshot. I understand that my short demo can be taken as lucky shooting, but the fact that he has done this numerous times, only with HEADSHOTS through smoke is a pretty clear indicator if you ask me. I specced him, then baited him by going hell hunter and throwing smokes, got lucky to get those 2 recorded when I started the demo and wassabi made the ban, but if for whatever reason the community feels it to be a false ban I would like to take all responsibility, as I was the one pursuing it.

[Symbiotic]

Hello, I have played CZ for 6 years and have gotten pretty good at hearing where people are and knowing where to aim to get headshots. I do not hack and have never hacked. Please reconsider the ban. Please contact me on steam or at my email [email protected].

[brett friggin favre]

I have played since cs 1.4 and I have NEVER seen anyone get headshots through smoke as consistently as you do. I have done that...maybe 3 or 4 times in my whole career and I've seen you do it 10 times over the past week. If you would like to appeal the ban, you may post a ban appeal in the proper section with the proper format but I stand by my analysis, regardless of your experience.

As a side note, CZ aiming is very different from CS:S aiming, so that skill doesn't translate as it appears to with you...especially when you can't see your targets.

[maynard]

if you post it, it's your ban. so you might want 2 be familiar with the actual person being banned and the demo of said hacker.

if the ban gets overturned, it goes on your record, not wassabi's... I Would suggest that all admins not post for other admins unless they really wana stand by the ban.... but just the same admins should stop being lazy, and deal with their own bans.

[brett friggin favre]

if you post it, it's your ban. so you might want 2 be familiar with the actual person being banned and the demo of said hacker.

if the ban gets overturned, it goes on your record, not wassabi's... I Would suggest that all admins not post for other admins unless they really wana stand by the ban.... but just the same admins should stop being lazy, and deal with their own bans.

i'm aware, and i watched this guy get other headshots through smoke and i took the short demo you see. speaking of the demos, i just reviewed my short one again with r_drawothermodels 2 and you can actually see better what's going on and how he decides when he's going to spray. but anyway i think you misunderstood what i was saying. i was going to ban him, then wassabi said he'd do it so i let him go ahead and since i took the demo, saw the kills, i would write it up. it's not so much me posting for him as it is him banning for me.

[Jiggy]

ok check this out i was sitting in spec ive noticed and couple other admin noticed and suspected about it. :banghead: and sorry i didnt post the ban on the site my mistake.

[Symbiotic]

BTW if you watch the longer demo you can see through every smoke how I would spray 1-3 clips through each smoke and through some of them if you look closely you can see movement through them or bullets coming at me giving away the enemies position... as for the short I was able to see the people position by their bullet fire down the hallway. If I was hacking don't you think I would have seen the last guy standing behind the left door that got me? Also, to the CZ being different aiming than CS:S its the same... We play the same maps people hide in the same spots and the only "cheat" that I do is turning foot step sounds up which is actually a legit strategy for cal-o cal-m players... and is not considered hacking.

edit* I found a demo where I am getting headshots if you watch you can see that I am in fact aiming towards their heads and not hacking. About 5 minutes in I pull out a gun and just Shift + F2 to get there. This is simply my typical play style and there is no indication or even the slightest hint of hacking...4073

[Xerenix]

After looking through all 3 demos, i see no indication of any hacking at all. His aim is too smooth for it to be aimbot and during the symwalls demo, he sprays through the smoke killing one guy then reloads, when he has just finished reloading and start spraying again, a enemy shows up in the smoke.

I'll have to vote no on this one.

[Jiggy]

if you post it, it's your ban. so you might want 2 be familiar with the actual person being banned and the demo of said hacker.

if the ban gets overturned, it goes on your record, not wassabi's... I Would suggest that all admins not post for other admins unless they really wana stand by the ban.... but just the same admins should stop being lazy, and deal with their own bans.

ok than i will start on posting bans and not asking other admins to do it

[maynard]

ok than i will start on posting bans and not asking other admins to do it

thx

it's best that way as often questions can come up about the person, or the demo it's self... having the person who did the ban post it just makes it easier for us 2 follow up on it if need be.

several times ive gone 2 someone, asked them specifics about a ban and they say "oh I was doing the ban for blah blah so I don't know ask them" ... just ends up being a waste of time.

[Jiggy]

thx

it's best that way as often questions can come up about the person, or the demo it's self... having the person who did the ban post it just makes it easier for us 2 follow up on it if need be.

several times ive gone 2 someone, asked them specifics about a ban and they say "oh I was doing the ban for blah blah so I don't know ask them" ... just ends up being a waste of time..

np

[brett friggin favre]

After looking through all 3 demos, i see no indication of any hacking at all. His aim is too smooth for it to be aimbot and during the symwalls demo, he sprays through the smoke killing one guy then reloads, when he has just finished reloading and start spraying again, a enemy shows up in the smoke.

I'll have to vote no on this one.

Watch the symwalls demo again with r_drawothermodels 2. Note the timing of his first spray, right before he dies. I suspect his wallhacks work like r_drawothermodels 2. he uses that jutting out wall to see when players run into the smoke. He could start spraying at any time but he looks through the jutting wall to see when players are going to be in the target area. He also does that for the second kill he gets. Also with the second kill, I don't think he sprays a FULL clip into the smoke. Most of one for sure, but if its truly random spray you wouldn't just stop after you get a kill, you'd finish the clip to see if you could get another. On top of those, note how he knows where the player down the hall is. Of course it could be on his radar because his teammate had just seen him, so I can't say anything for sure on that one. Then note how he prefires the human down the other hall towards t-spawn. He knows the player is there. If you watch without drawothermodels, you can't see the guy there, he just prefires him. I know that looking into that hall is a tough spot. I'm most on guard for guys who pop out right in front of me, hiding behind the doors, as a good player would be. He doesn't even check corners. He just goes straight to the door to T spawn and starts shooting. If he was playing SMART, he'd see that for the moment nobody is in the hallway and move into it, keeping an eye on the doors to T spawn. He'd move in there so an enemy didn't surprise him from the side but instead of doing any of that, he KNOWS the player is right behind the doors and prefires him. Also you'd want to run into the hallway because at this point, the enemy has the jump on you. When you shoot, you let him know where you are, and it's up to him when to pop out and take you out. He gives the opponent an advantage which is why he dies. An experienced player would run into the hallway and try to get the jump on the enemy, catching him by surprise, not shooting at a wall til he comes out. ON TOP OF THAT, back to the spraying through smoke, HE NEVER CHECKS HIS REAR OR HIS FLANK. A player as "experienced" as him would know that while he's reloading, he should use that time to check his surroundings for enemies trying to flank him, but he remains fixated on the wall in front of him. Why? Because he can see through them.

[Xerenix]

Watch the symwalls demo again with r_drawothermodels 2. Note the timing of his first spray, right before he dies. I suspect his wallhacks work like r_drawothermodels 2. he uses that jutting out wall to see when players run into the smoke. He could start spraying at any time but he looks through the jutting wall to see when players are going to be in the target area. He also does that for the second kill he gets. Also with the second kill, I don't think he sprays a FULL clip into the smoke. Most of one for sure, but if its truly random spray you wouldn't just stop after you get a kill, you'd finish the clip to see if you could get another. On top of those, note how he knows where the player down the hall is. Of course it could be on his radar because his teammate had just seen him, so I can't say anything for sure on that one. Then note how he prefires the human down the other hall towards t-spawn. He knows the player is there. If you watch without drawothermodels, you can't see the guy there, he just prefires him. I know that looking into that hall is a tough spot. I'm most on guard for guys who pop out right in front of me, hiding behind the doors, as a good player would be. He doesn't even check corners. He just goes straight to the door to T spawn and starts shooting. If he was playing SMART, he'd see that for the moment nobody is in the hallway and move into it, keeping an eye on the doors to T spawn. He'd move in there so an enemy didn't surprise him from the side but instead of doing any of that, he KNOWS the player is right behind the doors and prefires him. Also you'd want to run into the hallway because at this point, the enemy has the jump on you. When you shoot, you let him know where you are, and it's up to him when to pop out and take you out. He gives the opponent an advantage which is why he dies. An experienced player would run into the hallway and try to get the jump on the enemy, catching him by surprise, not shooting at a wall til he comes out. ON TOP OF THAT, back to the spraying through smoke, HE NEVER CHECKS HIS REAR OR HIS FLANK. A player as "experienced" as him would know that while he's reloading, he should use that time to check his surroundings for enemies trying to flank him, but he remains fixated on the wall in front of him. Why? Because he can see through them.


After watching the demo a few times more, i'm still not convinced he's wallhacking.

Here is what i see happens:

1. Symbotic gets killed by a guy in the smoke then respawns.

2. Symbotic sprays into the smoke and kills the first guy then reloads while the second guy runs next to the smoke shooting.

3. When Symbotic finish reloading, he sprays into the smoke and kills the second guy then he reloads again after using up his bullets, when he finish reloading the smoke disappears and he walks forward.

4. When nearing the corner, you can hear the third guy in the hall shooting with his afk and symbotic know he's there because of it and then kills him.

5. Symbotic go into the middle of the hall then turns around while his teammate gets killed in the second hall by a fouth guy which makes both the teammate and enemy show up on the radar where they were.

6. Symbotic prefires into the second hall then the fourth guy teleports while symbotic keeps spraying near door to T spawn not seeing the fourth guy comming up right next to him.

Nothing in it looks like wallhack to me.

[Symbiotic]

<3 xerenix
he KNOWS the player is right behind the doors and prefires him. Yes I knew the player was behind the door as he was shooting... also I can hear footsteps lol.

I don't think he sprays a FULL clip into the smoke. watch the full demo right before i sprayed the 2 FULL clips i had sprayed others through smoke which is what I always do when there is smoke in close quarters


A player as "experienced" as him would know that while he's reloading, he should use that time to check his surroundings for enemies trying to flank him, but he remains fixated on the wall in front of him. Why? Because he can see through them.
I'm fixated on the wall in front of me because the t's typically don't come from behind on that map and If you watch the full length demo you can see that when I didn't hear anybody or see gunfire I would look around while reloading...

[brett friggin favre]

5. Symbotic go into the middle of the hall then turns around while his teammate gets killed in the second hall by a fouth guy which makes both the teammate and enemy show up on the radar where they were.

6. Symbotic prefires into the second hall then the fourth guy teleports while symbotic keeps spraying near door to T spawn not seeing the fourth guy comming up right next to him.

Nothing in it looks like wallhack to me.

There are 5 seconds between when his teammate is killed and when he shoots down the hallway. 5 seconds is plenty enough time for a player to move to a different location. Being "experienced" and having already wasted many rounds through the smoke, he should be conserving ammo at this point but no, he throws a bunch of rounds at where a terrorist was 5 seconds ago. As I explained previously, that's not legitimate strategy. An experienced player would try to get into the enemy's face and take him by surprise, not give away his location and waste ammo because he THINKS the guy might still be there after 5 seconds. I woke up this morning thinking "ya know what, maybe he's just lucky." but I looked at the demo again and I can still see clear as day that he has wallhacks. After 10 years experience in this game, I have developed a pretty good sense for when something's not legit. I know how to use radar. I know how players work and I know when to look where. His patterns, not just what he does but also what he doesn't do, do not show any logic until you turn r_drawothermodels 2 on. The fact that what you see in that short demo is a common occurance with him, the fact that he times his sprays perfectly to when people are coming around corners through smoke, the fact that he's willing to throw rounds into a corner 5 seconds after he last knew someone was there...these are things the most experienced player would not and could not do. Experienced players don't waste rounds, they anticipate where people will be but don't shoot til they see the enemy so the enemy doesn't know where they are. If he uses experience as an excuse, that just lets me know that this is even more BS than I originally thought because his behavior patterns are that of the 4 year old son of a taliban agent who just got his hands on a gun for the first time, not someone who has been playing CS for 6+ years.

[Symbiotic]

these are things the most experienced player would not and could not do

I haven't been playing CS consistently for the past decade; I played CS for 3 years then I played CZ for about 4 years and took a 3 year break and haven't touched a cs game since I just recently got CSS and have just recently been playing it. I only have 23 hours logged on my account and this WCS server has been the only server I've been playing on.
*edit* When I used to play CZ I only played on a hook mod server which is why I spray and "prefire" and do not pay heed to getting flanked. Since I'm used to just hooking away (or relying on super powers in this case).


An experienced player would try to get into the enemy's face and take him by surprise, not give away his location and waste ammo because he THINKS the guy might still be there after 5 seconds. Typically, when people are camping on cs_office they do just that camp and stay in the same positions in that hallway. If you watch the full demo I prefire on most of the walls when I know there is somewhere there (due to footsteps/gunfire)


he fact that what you see in that short demo is a common occurance with him, the fact that he times his sprays perfectly to when people are coming around corners through smoke, the fact that he's willing to throw rounds into a corner 5 seconds after he last knew someone was there...these are things the most experienced player would not and could not do. Experienced players don't waste rounds, they anticipate where people will be but don't shoot til they see the enemy so the enemy doesn't know where they are. If he uses experience as an excuse, that just lets me know that this is even more BS than I originally thought because his behavior patterns are that of the 4 year old son of a taliban agent who just got his hands on a gun for the first time, not someone who has been playing CS for 6+ years.
so you are proving I'm a noob doesn't mean I hack

[Xerenix]

Well i've said what my opinion is and that is that it's not wallhack.


You'll have to wait for a second upper admin or a clan member decide.

[Penis シ]

I watched the demos because this is a trendy topic.


I'll start by saying that I don't believe the symwalls demo shows anything necessary for a conviction.


So I wanted to see what led up to that situation and watched the sourcetv demo.


In that, I saw plenty of fishy behavior. There were two moments that occurred to me and brett is checking out the second one. But the first one happens shortly after 11000 tick.


In this instance, you have a vagabond teleporting into the area. Sym sees him right off and that's all fine, until what happens during the ensuing shootout. Sym is looking out the window and instead of moving forward into the window, he strafes toward the other window, noobish move but nothing, until you see where his crosshairs are for the entire thing. It looks to me like a walltrace to the point where he shoots before he even has a vantage on the guy. Everyone has shot at boxes where they saw someone disappear but this is something special, 2 people in motion and a minimap that isn't tracking the movement with a perfect walltrace.

I think that if we look into the sourcetv demo, we may find more than the symwalls demo has to offer.

[Xerenix]

In this instance, you have a vagabond teleporting into the area. Sym sees him right off and that's all fine, until what happens during the ensuing shootout. Sym is looking out the window and instead of moving forward into the window, he strafes toward the other window, noobish move but nothing, until you see where his crosshairs are for the entire thing. It looks to me like a walltrace to the point where he shoots before he even has a vantage on the guy. Everyone has shot at boxes where they saw someone disappear but this is something special, 2 people in motion and a minimap that isn't tracking the movement with a perfect walltrace.



I checked this one out and if you slow down the demo, you see he starts shooting at him after he sees him in the next window and as for follow him from one window to the next, he first aims where he was in the first window then simply strafes to the left when the vagabond runs after his teammate. I would have done the same.

In the Symwalls demo, the so called pre-fire is the same, he starts shooting after he sees him if you slow down the demo.

[Penis シ]

The demo shows him shooting through the window, and I could be thinking the exact opposite, but I was going with the addition of his ping plus sourcetv's ping meaning he actually shot that fraction of a second sooner, but like i said, if it's the exact opposite then he would have full view before pulling the trigger.

My moment on that part was when he adjusts his aim onto the character model through the wall.

[brett friggin favre]

Another part to watch is around tick 85000 in the sourcetv demo. That's just before my short demo starts. You can see that (and this is consistent with a few rounds prior to this time) that he doesn't shoot through the smoke down the long hall. On the other hand he immediately shoots through the smoke in the shorter hall which you see in my demo as well. It's this inconsistency, and the fact that he only shoots through smoke when he somehow knows that other people are there, which I'd like to point out here.

[Symbiotic]

I don't shoot through the smoke through the long hall because spraying from that distance will get me nothing but spraying down the short hall will get me kills as people ALWAYS camp there.
edit* fixed quote was html code lol

In this instance, you have a vagabond teleporting into the area. Sym sees him right off and that's all fine, until what happens during the ensuing shootout. Sym is looking out the window and instead of moving forward into the window, he strafes toward the other window, noobish move but nothing, until you see where his crosshairs are for the entire thing. It looks to me like a walltrace to the point where he shoots before he even has a vantage on the guy. Everyone has shot at boxes where they saw someone disappear but this is something special, 2 people in motion and a minimap that isn't tracking the movement with a perfect walltrace.

If you watch it shows that I can see vagabond which shows that I can see where he is looking at which shows that I can predict where he is going to teleport to. Knowing this I can partially predict where he is going to go. I'll find other demos where I'm fighting a vagabond and look towards where it is looking and continue to shoot in that area. It may take me a while to find some though.

[Link]

Ban overturned.


Thread closed.