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brett friggin favre
04-01-2012, 03:58 PM
so there's a discussion going on over the past few days in the wcs server over killing hostages. the situation is this: the ct's rescue 2 hosties or so, run back in, and kill the other 2, thereby winning. i spoke with maynard who said that it's not allowed, but people are claiming ZERO said it is allowed. just want some clarification on this.

my personal opinion is that it's not how the game was meant to be played. obviously, the ct's in reality wouldnt save one and be like "eh i don't have time for this shit, kill the last 3." it's manipulation of the game, similar to exploiting. but if there's no rule against it obviously i won't punish when it's done.

Andrew_Pavlik
04-01-2012, 04:03 PM
I've always played with the thoughts this was a legit strategy. The T's only need to blow up 1 bomb site and not 2, therefor the CT's should have to only rescue 1 group of hostages and not both. Even though most of the hostie maps we play on the WCS the hostages are practically in the same room or house so why not try and rescue both.

acolyte_to_jippity
04-01-2012, 05:11 PM
so there's a discussion going on over the past few days in the wcs server over killing hostages. the situation is this: the ct's rescue 2 hosties or so, run back in, and kill the other 2, thereby winning. i spoke with maynard who said that it's not allowed, but people are claiming ZERO said it is allowed. just want some clarification on this.

my personal opinion is that it's not how the game was meant to be played. obviously, the ct's in reality wouldnt save one and be like "eh i don't have time for this shit, kill the last 3." it's manipulation of the game, similar to exploiting. but if there's no rule against it obviously i won't punish when it's done.

the ct's also wouldn't have a hard time limit to save people either

ZERO
04-01-2012, 05:39 PM
They can rescue one and kill the rest it is the same as in the pub. IN wcs though the cost of that is a bit of a trade off b.c you do lose money for killing those other hosties.

brett friggin favre
04-01-2012, 05:48 PM
They can rescue one and kill the rest it is the same as in the pub. IN wcs though the cost of that is a bit of a trade off b.c you do lose money for killing those other hosties.

alright thanks, works for me

Nemesis
04-02-2012, 11:15 PM
The Asian hostage should always be killed as they cannot be trusted and will likely give away your position.

CYBER
04-02-2012, 11:31 PM
The Asian hostage should always be killed as they cannot be trusted and will likely give away your position.I cant believe i agree with u, i usually put a deagle bullet in its face just out of boredom, even if i got both sets of hosties... That fucker always seemed to get stuck to me back when hosties werent !block, and i will never forgive his slow running-.-

maynard
04-03-2012, 02:01 AM
cool... I guess we're just abandoning years of how the server has been run for some odd reason?

good 2 know....

brett friggin favre
04-03-2012, 02:14 AM
i can see logic on both sides of the argument. one thing to keep in mind especially about wcs is tomes. if you buy tomes then kill hosties, you'll only be losing a few hundred dollars by killing the hostages, and you gain more than what you lose by winning the round.

maynard
04-03-2012, 02:18 AM
which is why for going on 3 years now, you have not been allowed 2 exploit the hostages like that.

also keep in mind a race like vegabond can easily swoop in, grab 1 hostage and be back home within the first minute of the game if there only goal is 2 get 1 hostage so their team can exploit this.


the rules have since they were written stated "respect and complete the objective" <--- and this rule was literally written based on NOT killing the hosties 2 win.... there is nothing about respecting the objective when you shoot 3 fucking hostages in the head so you can quickly win the round...

you can also look at the obvious fact that 1 single person losing a few hundred dollars for killing the hostages beyond out weights the fact the entire team gets a benefit of several thousand dollars per person...

there is no trade off what so ever....

Nemesis
04-03-2012, 02:27 AM
there is nothing about respecting the objective when you shoot 3 fucking hostages in the head so you can quickly win the round...

unless they're Asian.

acolyte_to_jippity
04-03-2012, 06:37 AM
i've...never seen that enforced in such a way maymay. most people don't go in there explicitly to do so, of course. but if one or two gets stuck along the way, it's normal to just pop them if you can. like zero said, you lose money.

DJ_MikeyRevile
04-03-2012, 06:49 AM
Tbh, its a great clutch strategy. I don't agree with hostie slaying if your whole Damn team is alive but if the odds are 2/6 or somthing its not a bad idea. Also Maynard, the amount of money you get for rescuing hostages is based on how many of them are rescued.

Sin
04-03-2012, 07:42 AM
AFAIK, you need to rescue at least 3 hostages in order for it to count as a win. Unless there was a change to the config that allows only 1 to be saved.

I remember back in the old days in 1.5-6 on cs_militia, it was almost impossible to rescue all of the hostages, and sometimes we'd just wallspam the garage to kill that last one. Ahhhh... memories.

EDIT: Hostie maps are shitty as fuck, anyway.

blackmail242
04-03-2012, 09:29 AM
Honest some conditions should be made. Such as if it is logically impossible to rescue the last few hosties due to the TIME LEFT or as mentioned above the teams are like 1/6 (1 being the CTS). Otherwise I fear, as Maynard said, we'd be having some mofo's learning about this rule fly to hosties on vaga and rescuing one or two letting the team kill whichever were left (personally I'd leave the Asian... motherfucker never listens). So yeah +1 for conditions to be met on the whole killing hosties thing

brett friggin favre
04-03-2012, 09:45 AM
Honest some conditions should be made. Such as if it is logically impossible to rescue the last few hosties due to the TIME LEFT or as mentioned above the teams are like 1/6 (1 being the CTS). Otherwise I fear, as Maynard said, we'd be having some mofo's learning about this rule fly to hosties on vaga and rescuing one or two letting the team kill whichever were left (personally I'd leave the Asian... motherfucker never listens). So yeah +1 for conditions to be met on the whole killing hosties thing

if you have problems with time left, you're camping. unless it's militia, then maybe you weren't camping. as far as being 1v6 goes, i was playing on classified a few days ago as rapscallion. a ct had just killed like 4 of my teammates on the way to rescue the first 2 hostages. i set up near the second batch of hostages and my strategy is to wait til he's leaving with them to follow him and go for the easy backknife. he decides to shoot them in the face, map over. there was plenty of time left, he just didn't want to deal with me so he killed them. when you look at it that way, sure it helped him win, but i wouldn't call it as much a "clutch" strategy as i would a "bitch" strategy.

maynard
04-03-2012, 10:47 AM
if you have problems with time left, you're camping. unless it's militia

this is true.

and aco, that's always been enforced on the server, since the rules went into play as it's just a cheap tactic 2 win... you have enough time 2 get the hostages if you don't drag your ass... maybe it was lost in the background noise of new adimns making up there rules... which tends 2 happen quite often, but killing the hosties was never tolerated.

doesn't matter though, if zero wants it green lighted, it is.


unless they're Asian.

the asian is a lie.

acolyte_to_jippity
04-03-2012, 04:42 PM
and aco, that's always been enforced on the server, since the rules went into play as it's just a cheap tactic 2 win... you have enough time 2 get the hostages if you don't drag your ass... maybe it was lost in the background noise of new adimns making up there rules... which tends 2 happen quite often, but killing the hosties was never tolerated.



huh. i always (note, even back when the respecting objectives rule was first made) was told/had it explained (by yourself, blade, zero, etc) that the rule was created to force people to do the objective, and not just sit there. nothing about HOW the objective was to be done ever came up. indeed, it was made because some people decided to just hide instead of attempting anything, so as to not lose their guns in dying.

DJ_MikeyRevile
04-03-2012, 04:56 PM
bottom line, the consequences that come from strategically playing is sufficient. there are three ways the hostie end up dead, first and most common, they get caught in the cross fire. Second, a terrorist kills them (which is and has always been against the rules.) Thirdly, a CT knows he dosnt have enough time due to the current odds and offs the remaining hostie to win the round. The last one HARDLY happens

maynard
04-03-2012, 05:01 PM
Lol pretty sure I know why I made the rules, thanks though. That rule was specifically made 2 ensure the bombs get planted and that people stop killing the hostages as a cheap way of winning... as before the rules were implemented WCS was kind of like the wild west... anything really went....

also, back in the day people didn't ever really do it, as it was not allowed (once rules came into play) it wasn't till over the last year when my presence has lacked in server that new admins and regs started trying 2 change various rules, or make up claims as 2 how things are.

for example, we all know the rule regarding 1 per team races as it comes up all the time... but there's still new people who try and challenge it for some odd reason... owns fighting with the new regulars recently being proof of that... if something is left un challenged long enough, people will start thinking that's how things actually go.

There is not a single need or reason 2 kill the hostages as you have more than ample time 2 complete the objective.... all it is, is people trying 2 find loopholes in winning. so what if 1 single person loses a bit of money from killing the hostages? the entire team all benefits with the winning the round bonus... including the person who shot them... the cash every 1 gains beyond out wieghts the cash the 1 single person loses... I'm not saying this 2 try and convince any 1 we need 2 change it, as zero made a decision and ill respect that.... just explaining my reasoning and why it was never allowed.

brett friggin favre
04-04-2012, 12:50 AM
on a similar note, what about hiding in the hosties? tonight, every round there are multiple t's hiding in the hosties, forcing ct's to kill the hostages basically. i understand it happening occasionally, but excessively?

maynard
04-04-2012, 01:10 AM
? hosties have block on, how are people hiding in them?

brett friggin favre
04-04-2012, 01:19 AM
they do not, you go right through them

maynard
04-04-2012, 02:27 AM
how long has it been like that? block has always been on for them in the past... and as someone who only plays T, nor ever camps the hostages, I never noticed this.

brett friggin favre
04-04-2012, 02:41 AM
been like that for a while...i honestly cannot remember block being on. i took some time off in there but yeah.

might also be that i didn't pay attention. but i've seen it happening with increasing frequency in the last week or so.

maynard
04-04-2012, 05:06 AM
ive never seen them not have it on... and ive been playing for 3 years lol... like I said I don't play CT, nor ever guard the hosties as I play aggressive.

I'm quite sure this was done recently. apparently zero did this intentionally, I'll look into it... wouldn't surprise me though as if you hide in a hostie and shoot, you shoot the hostie taking money loss, so I can see zero being ok with that trade off.

---------- Post added at 05:06 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:59 AM ----------


Should no longer work starting next map change. Also the no block will apply to hosties now in the wcs server.

yeah, zero did this intentionally a few months back as I thought.

BladeTwinSwords
04-04-2012, 07:47 AM
Maynard, block was turned off for hostages about 1 month ago because many people were getting stuck in the hostages, making it impossible for them to move.

brett friggin favre
04-04-2012, 09:17 AM
so back to the original question: hiding in hosties every round, legit strategy or fun at others' expense to the point of punishment?

maynard
04-04-2012, 04:08 PM
it's fine for now as ive already said that you can't shoot your gun when hiding in them without harming them, and taking money loss.

blade, only idiots got stuck in the hosties lol, it was easy 2 not have that happen:lmao:

CYBER
04-06-2012, 11:53 AM
I found a solution for those with the tendency to shoot the hosties...
http://www.gamebanana.com/css/skins/31625


The only drawback is that, if the hostage room is a kitchen, the game is a stalemate.
And CTs should be banned for getting them out of there.
That is all.

brett friggin favre
04-06-2012, 12:24 PM
What about necrophiliacs?

acolyte_to_jippity
04-06-2012, 12:28 PM
I found a solution for those with the tendency to shoot the hosties...
http://www.gamebanana.com/css/skins/31625


The only drawback is that, if the hostage room is a kitchen, the game is a stalemate.
And CTs should be banned for getting them out of there.
That is all.

^_^

god i miss cs_caberet

ZERO
04-06-2012, 02:33 PM
I could create a mod that lets them go negative in their money... :smirk:

I did not think of that issue only that it was allowed in the pub and I did not see how this objective could be exploited in wcs. :banghead:

maynard
04-06-2012, 04:31 PM
good idea... a higher percentage of money loss for the T's shooting hosties would be good as well... I don't think any 1 would ever try and exploit it at that point.

Spasm
04-06-2012, 06:34 PM
if something is left unchallenged long enough, people will start thinking that's how things actually go.


I haven't read the whole thread yet but this statement right here is true so damn true it needed to be quoted alone. I haven't played since the beginning of wcs but I have played for years on wcs. A good couple of examples:

Poison Smokes being considered wards. -I was wrong about this but I have seen MANY people banned for smoking the objective. I was never really hooked on wcs back in the day when Maynard played a lot, so I don't know all the rules like he does, I just know how they have been enforced over the years.

Wards on dropped bomb. - This one was never a problem though until recently a dispute came up about it.

Killing Hosties. - This thread...

blackmail242
04-06-2012, 10:05 PM
I
Poison Smokes being considered wards. -I was wrong about this but I have seen MANY people banned for smoking the objective. I was never really hooked on wcs back in the day when Maynard played a lot, so I don't know all the rules like he does, I just know how they have been enforced over the years.

Wards on dropped bomb. - This one was never a problem though until recently a dispute came up about it.

Killing Hosties. - This thread...I've seen people kicked and warned for summoning into wards for not giving the summonee a fair chance to fight back. :/ but yeah most rules, that are not in the official post, get challenged >.<

maynard
04-07-2012, 02:58 AM
I've seen people kicked and warned for summoning into wards for not giving the summonee a fair chance to fight back. :/ but yeah most rules, that are not in the official post, get challenged >.<

there is no punishing of people summoning into wards... we don't punish people for using team work on WCS... that's exactly how the server should be played.

if there is EVER any form of miscommunication or understanding of the rules, PM me. I'm happy 2 resolve any situations regarding the rules.

Nemesis
04-07-2012, 07:04 AM
I haven't seen anyone suggest it, but what about making the hosties invulnerable? or could this just be exploited as a meat shield too often? Unless there's a way to make the bullets pass through the hosties as if they weren't there, then they'd have to be rescued.

checkster
04-07-2012, 07:50 AM
I haven't seen anyone suggest it, but what about making the hosties invulnerable? or could this just be exploited as a meat shield too often? Unless there's a way to make the bullets pass through the hosties as if they weren't there, then they'd have to be rescued.

You mean like this one ?
http://forums.alliedmods.net/showthread.php?p=1326461
Tho killing hostages have always been a part of game, ( A legit but cheap way to make cts/ts loose money ) so I think that giving them godmode/relay high health is going overboard with modding.

I think making them hot ladies will stop us from killing them :P

Patmonster
04-07-2012, 10:25 AM
I think making them hot ladies will stop us from killing them :P


As Long as you guys don't let them speak..
This will work.

blackmail242
04-07-2012, 10:33 AM
but then how will I know food ish ready? :/

CHI-TOWN
04-09-2012, 03:22 AM
good to know

brett friggin favre
04-28-2012, 03:36 PM
don't mean to be necroing but i saw the hostie killing to win a round done again today, wondering if it's still a go or since zero referred to it as "exploiting" in his last post, it's not.

maynard
04-28-2012, 07:29 PM
don't mean to be necroing but i saw the hostie killing to win a round done again today, wondering if it's still a go or since zero referred to it as "exploiting" in his last post, it's not.


They can rescue one and kill the rest it is the same as in the pub. IN wcs though the cost of that is a bit of a trade off b.c you do lose money for killing those other hosties.

killing hosties is allowed.

brett friggin favre
04-28-2012, 07:36 PM
killing hosties is allowed.


I could create a mod that lets them go negative in their money... :smirk:

I did not think of that issue only that it was allowed in the pub and I did not see how this objective could be exploited in wcs. :banghead:

i was referring to that post, which is less clear

CYBER
04-28-2012, 10:09 PM
Yeah, killing hosties is allowed based on zero's words... I am personally against it... With a map where a set of hosties is easily accessible ( like militia, office, and so forth) , ct's can easily steal the first set of hosties and have a vagabond shoot the other set feom outside, or teleport in and knife them, or someone throws a grenade there... And bam! Instant ct win... And to be honest? 'losing money' is not the best defense for that, i personally but tomes or items just before i do that and i kill them with already an empty bank.... This also gives a disadvantage for the Ts that are properly defending a set of hosties and lose the game bcos the other set is stolen in front of incompetent defenders lol... Thats my 2 cents on it, but im following what zero ordered.

Passarelli
03-07-2013, 06:29 PM
Just be careful. I've gotten kicked a couple times on militia from killing the two easy to rescue hosties so they can't just grab them and shoot the other 2 through the garage door. You can do it two rounds, but that third one, you'll get a boot in your ass.