Next time someone bitches about impalance

[StarsMine]

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/perfect-imbalance

Its designed that way learn to counter.

[maynard]

good vid

[CYBER]

whats impalance?:P

edit:
just watched the video./ fucking amazing description and depicts exactly what happens in wcs here too...
agreed, there are times when something is wrongfully unbalanced, and there are times when its just perfect enough.
learn to counter. if after trying to counter for 20 rounds with good , smart strategies u keep failing, THEN bitch :D
... dnt bitch from round 1 in game plz.

+1 for stickying this shit and naming it "Balance Bitching HERE"

[Blackmage]

I agree with this video! It shows vagabond is a HUGE issue :P Vagabond fails cyclical (im)balance hardcore, as well as being far from subtle. Not saying it's broken, but (according to the video) unbalanced.

But other than that, I agree, this applies for our server fairly well. There are some things that aren't accurate for our server, such as cyclical imbalance needing players who care. But between meta shifting every map, and looking at Spidey pre- and post- speed correction, we've got it good.

On a side note, I really need to add Extra Credits back to my RSS. What am I doing 3 weeks behind...

[Erdenay]

I've sent links to around 10 friends of mine... That happens extremely on rare occasions - thus great video!

[brett friggin favre]

been on this same way of thinking since i started playing games with any strategy. great to have it all in that nicely done package.

[StarsMine]

Did I really fail to spell imbalance o.O
Only race I could possibly say is unbalanced to the point of broken right now is rapscallion. But thats at the underpowered part of the scale.

[Masskid]

Did I really fail to spell imbalance o.O
Only race I could possibly say is unbalanced to the point of broken right now is rapscallion. But thats at the underpowered part of the scale.
Meh, it can still be very strong if used correctly. I have lead a team as rapscallian. Yes it is hard but is still can stand balance wise to other races

[acolyte_to_jippity]

dear god...that is one of the most enlightened and applicable vids i've seen in some time.

have some kudos good sir.

[Chikun]

I'm sure that all of the WCS races were balanced using an equation.

I'm sure that none of the skill design in any of the races were done haphazardly.

I'm sure that people have stopped bitching about the "you know the race(s) I'm talking about" to bitch about how they keep getting countered when playing as said race(s).

Enlightening video though.

[CYBER]

I agree with this video! It shows vagabond is a HUGE issue :P Vagabond fails cyclical (im)balance hardcore, as well as being far from subtle. Not saying it's broken, but (according to the video) unbalanced. But other than that, I agree, this applies for our server fairly well. There are some things that aren't accurate for our server, such as cyclical imbalance needing players who care. But between meta shifting every map, and looking at Spidey pre- and post- speed correction, we've got it good.On a side note, I really need to add Extra Credits back to my RSS. What am I doing 3 weeks behind...How does vagabond fail the perfect cyclical imbalace? Why do u think there's shadow hunter, jack, human, athena , void , LACE,... When u have a whole fucking team of shadow hunters and ofhers with laces, vagabond means shit.same for vagalion. Im not the best at that shit but i like to consider myself one of the few people who truely unlocked the race's highest potential, and i tell u that i would easily jump off the race if there was a combo of this dedicated to fuck u up...just saying, wcs is fucking fine. I agree rapscallion is on the very low end. If its blade would proc as much as vagalion, and the racw ultimate NOT showing through walls, then it would go on par for very loved races

[maynard]

what I took from the video is that unless the entire community is bitching about the same thing, stfu, and figure out why you're failing... and even if the entire community is bitching.... STFU and figure out why you're failing. there is ALWAYS a counter.


vega is not a problem in even the slightest lol... other than it's glitches. in terms of being a balanced race, it's beautiful.

[Blackmage]

When does it ever become played less because of other races? Does it seem weaker? Does it cause almost everyone to complain about it's ultimate? What CAN'T it do?

Does it have counters? Yes. Do any of these lead to any form of a Cycle? Please tell me how it does anything related to a cyclic balancing act.

Maynard: if that's seriously what you took from the video, watch it again. It says the exact OPPOSITE things, actually. Well, other than the "try to figure out counters". (What I mean is that, if most of the community is complaining, it doesn't mean you need to find a counter, if it's going on for extended periods of time. What I said for Vaga is above here.)

Edit: Some more thoughts. Having a counter does not mean it's balanced. Just look at Magic, JaceTMS, or Tarmagoyf for examples. Having a counter means you're not invincible, not that you're balanced. You can "counter" most hacks with Molly bubble, and should be able to with Shadow Hunter, but I digress. Does that means hacking is actually balanced? One other thing that often shows something is unbalanced is the requirement of either having or being able to deal with something, at all times. Sound like a certain race to you?

Also, some of those "counters" you list are VERY situational. Lace only stops certain aspects of it. Ultimates stop it if they don't have a lace, something they often have due to not needing other items/weapons. Shadow hunter has the exact same problem of laces. You need to be close. As for a group dedicated to taking out a single opponent, and not having to worry about the rest of the team, and doing well enough that this is even feasible, and being able to pull it off. I will admit, I can see this working on some maps, but most, even if you, personally, would be willing to get off Vaga, most people won't be, because being able to shut you down requires getting to you, which requires them to sometimes, at least, deal with the other players. Some people would just fill a different role than the one they were doing, some would slog through failing to do much of anything.

I'm NOT saying the same things about lion, however. They are close combat, pure and simple.

Finally, I'm not trying to get anything about it changed. Just pointing out that, by many standards, Vaga is NOT balanced. In fact, as I'm trying to show, you are agreeing with something that shows exactly that. However, I'll make a comparison to Magic again. Tarmagoyf, is it balanced? Nope. Have WotC done anything about it? Nope. Just trying not to make the same mistake again.

[StarsMine]

You dont see people leaving vagalion, because they need to keep it or they dont know when they will get the chance to play it again. However shadow hunter gives a great balance. Lions dont dare jump into a ward, so when I see a lion around I find the nearest ward and run into it.

The only times when I see a vagabond or a lion get a positive K/D is when the other team does not attempt to counter.

No hacking is not balanced, it give an advantage that other players do not have, and adds a variable we dont consider in balancing other races.

[CYBER]

The only times when I see a vagabond or a lion get a positive K/D is when the other team does not attempt to counter.

THIS.
blackmage, read this since we both like walls of text -.- . (u know, this is actually a gd read ppl... if u wanna know some vaga tricks)

yesterday, i was being raped 1-7 right off the bat as vagalion because of the anti-races played by an enemy.
that enemy left, 4 more joined, and i went 60-10 on that same map, simply because they were too dumb to counter me...
the sad part is that, if they used their BRAIN, they'd have raped me. Vagas always have the tendency to teleport to "familiar" places and spots.

ex italy as T, a sample vaga movement would be to teleport to the corner between apparts and spawn, teleport to balcony, teleport to boxes above stairs leading to CT hall...
its a fucking process, a chain of teleport.
Reason why they do that? because they KNOW that this is the safest way not to get teleport damage...
just shoot at these spots, or be ready with wards... i cant tell u how many times i went there, raping ppl, until Wizard finally figured it out, and started teleporting there before me, with a lace... thats it. its game over for me... now i have to find ANOTHER way to counter him at that spot, picking us off 1 by 1, simply because i used to be the one covering it... Hence the cyclic imbalance

even when im not playing vagas, i fucking hunt the living fuck out of them just because i know the player tendencies where to go... oinly a couple people give me some hard time NOT BECAUSE OF THE RACE, but because THEY are gd players. THe imbalance comes from their skills, not the race...
u just need to stop jumping aroudn like a fish outside of water, and learn how to kill them...

vagas are more than balanced, heck whoever says they are the best race are idiots. easily countered, too many races against it, people see you as beacon for bullets, bcos of the xp...


I have a question:
Why do you think that vagas are NOT well played in scrims since they are soo fucking amazing?? hmmm?? i tell u from personal experience that in scrims, vagas SUCK. reason is that the teams are playing smart, strategically, together, with counters, precautions...
killing noobs in normal game is different than playing vaga against decent players in scrim...

i call a race imbalanced if a noob that used to be 0-70 kdr, hops on that race, and people try to take him down and fail... and he starts winning then... like a fucking 100% invis human with 100000 hp with built in lace and no teleport cooldown... see THATS wrongfully imbalanced (unfortunately there are wcs servers out there with such shit), but vaga isnt.

[Chikun]

The only part of that movie that applies to vagabond is the idea of trying to come up with theories to counters. Races with a passive lace play to their strengths by waiting around the corner of a long hallway vaga's teleport down to trap them. Shadow hunters or striders tend to lure vagas into tight areas so they can drop wards. While all of these strategies are sharp counters to a vagalion, they aren't to a vagabond for the simple reason that they can play to their strength by staying at range picking people off with the scout and still be as effective as people who get up close and play it like a vagalion or noscope with the scout. Practically every race in this server has some form of a sharp counter to it that can reduce the effectiveness of the other race by quite a bit. The only sharp counters to vagabond that I can think of are if the server is on cs_office or similar maps with limited open space and narrow hallways. Another example would be a terrorist on italy/militia that buys a lace and camps the round inside the house waiting for the vagabond to try to enter.

[CYBER]

The only sharp counters to vagabond that I can think of are if the server is on cs_office or similar maps with limited open space
...
smaller maps are better for vaga knifing... on office i usually get 20 more kills than any other map i play except dust 2... its all about knowing HOW to navigate through the halls, and not just teleport in the middle like an idiot.. zig zag left right and up down, until u;re near...
u can also snipe ppl from outside. so i dnt see ur point.

but u;re right about the other shit.
a long hallway is like the fucking holy grail for vagas to travel in. wait at the end of it, with a lace, and bam! u got urself a vaga stuck.
and for god's sakes ppl... if u dnt have wards or anything, keep ONE fucking grenade with u, and dont use it for anything, except if u got the vaga STUCK and he's ON UR RADAR, and u wanna try to pinpoint the height and exact position, so that u dnt get knifed randomly... u throw the nade where the radar shows... done.
i fucking love it when im stuck, and 5 random idiot enemies walk into me trying to find me and die...1 by 1... always fun

[Chikun]

...
smaller maps are better for vaga knifing... on office i usually get 20 more kills than any other map i play except dust 2... its all about knowing HOW to navigate through the halls, and not just teleport in the middle like an idiot.. zig zag left right and up down, until u;re near...
u can also snipe ppl from outside. so i dnt see ur point.

It's more difficult though because you only have a narrow passage to hit people (unless someone is just in the wide open like an idiot) and that just makes you play like you're fighting an awper on a 24/7 office server. In short, constantly peeking and prefiring.

Also, the majority of hallways are short enough where you can snap aim accurately with the exception of big snipe (cs_office).

There's a lot of places a T can camp with a lace and ruin a vaga every time. It's a little more difficult for a CT unless they get in fast enough.

Idk, I guess I'm trying to say that if someone playing as a vagabond is on their A game, you need to be on yours and only on certain races and I just don't think that's right. Races should have more of a rock-paper-scissors feel instead rock-paper-scissors-dynamite, where scissors has a small chance to cut the fuse before dynamite blows up your team.

[Masskid]

Vaga is not greatly imbalanced... Want to know one way to rape them?? Stay inside for one, use corners since the tele is useless for that make sure they don't have a straight teleport line to you, wards also help as does a lace. Die xonvert Imo is more imbalanced then Vaga. I've never seen a Vaga dominate the whole other team for nearly an entire map.

[Blackmage]

Bah, I'm having too much fun writing these... Which is why they just are getting longer and longer.


No hacking is not balanced, it give an advantage that other players do not have, and adds a variable we dont consider in balancing other races.

Rhetoric sir. Was using an extreme example to show having a counter =/= balanced so that no one would mistake that for serious. I see I failed :/

Also, allow me to reiterate: "I'm NOT saying the same things about lion, however. They are close combat, pure and simple." But as my anti_ward is just a H click away, I quite assuredly WOULD jump right in with you :)


The only times when I see a vagabond or a lion get a positive K/D is when the other team does not attempt to counter.

If that's the "only" time you people see it, you need to get on more. Positive kdr has less to do with people trying to counter it, and more to do with the players who only go one or two ways and are easily taken down, or the ones who don't know how to do their objective. Such as some admin last night complaining because Terrorists wouldn't stay and protect the Hostage house. Players like that are fish in a barrel, just looking to pad someone's (usually a speed race) KDR. Then there's the fact that in general, and more so on a WCS server, KDR is far from everything. There are many roles to fill, respawns pad both K and D. Being able to pick off the 9 players that have all been knocked down to 10 increases your Kills, while being the one that hits those 9 players doesn't. Support roles don't always lead to the glory of kills, and in certain cases can lead to the agony of death. I, for one, am more than willing to sacrifice myself to stop a defusal, using any means necessary.

Cyber: Guessing that it wasn't so much "if they used their BRAIN" as "if they were playing competitively and not just buying XP/dicking around". When you have players who don't care as much about playing the full game, you will be having unbalanced games. These are not the rounds to focus on. As you suggested, the Scrim is a MUCH better starting point. But the best point would be a 10v10 game where we had mostly good players on both teams. Those extra 4 players on each team, especially if a few of them are cannon fodder, make a HUGE difference.

Also, if you have only one path on any map, yes, you would be countered. Which is why it is so easy to counter some Vagas on many maps. But when you have a Vaga who comes from multiple directions and not just apartments hallway, a single person does NOT counter them. The tendency to only teleport to "familiar places" is not a problem the best Vagas have. Once they learn how far they can teleport down, how to teleport up, how to bounce jump, they can, and will, teleport anywhere. If they land on the same place on their paths (with a very few minor exceptions) it's more coincidence than an exploitable maneuver. Same with catching them on long hallways. If they continue rushing without support, yes, they're dead. However, I do concede that if a player who only does one thing leads more easily to cyclical imbalance. Having one player cover one alternative is not leading to balance.

Some other examples for T on Italy: Go down passage near wine cellar, from here, you can: stay and scout, go over bridge in a similar pattern to your way, go cover market. Another: Go to apartments hallway, stay and snipe. Another: Go down long hall, jump into market, go to CT's T-intersection, from there, harass spawning CTs, go into apartments and flank, flank those in market. Stay in the house and actually protect the objective.

On scrims: maybe because it's unbalanced and not broken? Also might be the smaller server size, people only wanting to play them in a limited amount of ways, people caring about KDR or a myriad of other possibilities, but I'm going with the foremost. I've never had time to participate, so was never really concerned with a game that plays differently than our server, or the mindset of those involved.

As for the best race? Nope. The most unbalanced using this videos guidelines? Probably. The most versatile? Yes. Not sure why you are confusing unbalanced for ANYTHING else.

I'll also say I've realized one thing it can't do. Heal. Forgot about that subclass of support.


i call a race imbalanced if a noob that used to be 0-70 kdr, hops on that race, and people try to take him down and fail... and he starts winning then... like a fucking 100% invis human with 100000 hp with built in lace and no teleport cooldown... see THATS wrongfully imbalanced (unfortunately there are wcs servers out there with such shit), but vaga isnt.

Actually, that'd be broken. If that's merely unbalanced... I don't think that would be a very interesting server.


The only part of that movie that applies to vagabond is the idea of trying to come up with theories to counters.

I'm seriously not sure if you're agreeing with me or them... As such, I'll assume the latter :)

And the part where a good chunk complain about it. Well, until they are browbeaten not to. And where he can do all 3 main FPS jobs, and most secondary ones. Heck, given the number of bullets expended at him, he's even one of the best tanks.

Also, when is it ever a good idea to be baited as any race? But that sounded more directed to Lion, which could be.

As for lace on Militia/Italy, after the first time, they can, and sometimes will just run through with the highest base speed of any race PLUS their scout, using their "more often than not a 1HKO" weapon. But this is really neither here nor there.


keep ONE fucking grenade with u, and dont use it for anything, except if u got the vaga STUCK and he's ON UR RADAR, and u wanna try to pinpoint the height and exact position, so that u dnt get knifed randomly... u throw the nade where the radar shows... done.

Also nice for stray birdys.


I've never seen a Vaga dominate the whole other team for nearly an entire map.

I've seen most races dominate 80%+ of the other team. Granted, Vaga is not the main one (I'm looking at you Molly).

Also, some of your strategy predicates the ability to do such. Some maps, Port, Desperados, various rats style maps, assault and MANY objectives, won't allow you to do such AND do your objective. Waiting for Vagas to get bored, as Cyber said, is beating the player, not the race.

[Erdenay]

I would say that there are only 2 races that are not balanced - rapscalion who is under-powered and human who is over-powered.

[maynard]

rapscalion who is under-powered


Rap isn't under powered. 90% of people just don't know how to properly play it lol.

[Masskid]

Rap isn't under powered. 90% of people just don't know how to properly play it lol.
agreed

[Akoiah]

and human who is over-powered.

imo, spiderman was the only broken race, but I hear it already got nerfed. human is only overpowered in the sense that bash glitches your crosshair, which im pretty sure was not the intended effect.

[Erdenay]

Rap isn't under powered. 90% of people just don't know how to properly play it lol.

I can be a pretty decent raps and I've seen people do well with them, but the ultimate glitch when it shows you use it through the walls fucks it up big time - any good player as soon as they see that can easily kill raps 9 times out of 10. If that would be fixed, I would probably agree with you there (maybe increasing crit chances wouldn't hurt either), but inability to properly hide with ultimate along with you being a 40th level easy target does make it under-powered.


imo, spiderman was the only broken race, but I hear it already got nerfed. human is only overpowered in the sense that bash glitches your crosshair, which im pretty sure was not the intended effect.

Spider wasn't over-powered - good humans can kill them any day. A good player with max human + weapon + lace + health + helm = almost impossible to kill. I've seen it in countless of times of how max humans can clutch in situations any other race would probably be destroyed easily. Don't get me wrong - I'm not complaining and I have no problems with it just like I'm fine with all the other races in our server... But human is definitely over-powered.

[maynard]

I can be a pretty decent raps and I've seen people do well with them, but the ultimate glitch when it shows you use it through the walls fucks it up big time - any good player as soon as they see that can easily kill raps 9 times out of 10. If that would be fixed, I would probably agree with you there (maybe increasing crit chances wouldn't hurt either), but inability to properly hide with ultimate along with you being a 40th level easy target does make it under-powered.

see this is proof that you're part of the 90% of people who clearly don't know how 2 play it...

Rap is not an offensive race, it a support/defensive race... it rapes by falling back, and waiting for the right moment 2 strike/ambush. if you go on the offensive with Rap, you're not going 2 have an overly fun time.

The entire point of Rap is 2 ambush the enemy... just because Rap isn't as hardcore or good or as easy as the other knife classes, does not mean that it's under powered. Rap is designed 2 serve a very specific role.... most choose 2 not play that role and play the race the complete opposite way it's meant 2 be played... and then wonder why they are having a shitty time.

[Akoiah]

yea well human is custom made for camping. of course it's gonna be good.

[Chikun]

I'm seriously not sure if you're agreeing with me or them... As such, I'll assume the latter :)

I was agreeing with you lol.

I was also giving examples where the effectiveness of the class is much lower if you happen to be on the right team.

Like I said, rock-paper-scissors-dynamite

[Erdenay]

see this is proof that you're part of the 90% of people who clearly don't know how 2 play it...

Rap is not an offensive race, it a support/defensive race... it rapes by falling back, and waiting for the right moment 2 strike/ambush. if you go on the offensive with Rap, you're not going 2 have an overly fun time.

The entire point of Rap is 2 ambush the enemy... just because Rap isn't as hardcore or good or as easy as the other knife classes, does not mean that it's under powered. Rap is designed 2 serve a very specific role.... most choose 2 not play that role and play the race the complete opposite way it's meant 2 be played... and then wonder why they are having a shitty time.

Trust me, I'm not playing offensively - I normally camp around the objective, but on some maps they can easily spot you even if you go straight to a place and use your ultimate. Furthermore, if they have a lace and they're at least decent, you're fucked most of the time.

[HypeRNT]

have yet to see a rap being played well on any map by anyone. Have yet to see SOMEONE play rap, the race is underplayed and pretty useless period, anyone that would even argue this clearly doesn't play enough on the server or is thinking of a different race.

[Chikun]

Trust me, I'm not playing offensively - I normally camp around the objective, but on some maps they can easily spot you even if you go straight to a place and use your ultimate. Furthermore, if they have a lace and they're at least decent, you're fucked most of the time.

Stop using your ultimate at ground level, if you're going to tell me that the other team is going to advance down pathways at the start of a round looking at the sky trying to find you... I just don't know what to say.

There are only a few outcomes to this:
1.) You're repeating your tactic by going to the same spot (your fault)
2.) You're advancing too far and they saw your ultimate through a wall (your fault)

When you say you "normally camp the objective" that leads me to believe you chose option 1. A solution to this is to hide in the air on a path to the objective rather than at the objective and vary your travel distance each round. When you ambush someone, you do it before they get to their destination, not after.


have yet to see a rap being played well on any map by anyone. Have yet to see SOMEONE play rap, the race is underplayed and pretty useless period, anyone that would even argue this clearly doesn't play enough on the server or is thinking of a different race.

You are beyond saving with logic. I'm sorry, I'm so, so, sorry.

[HypeRNT]

Stop using your ultimate at ground level, if you're going to tell me that the other team is going to advance down pathways at the start of a round looking at the sky trying to find you... I just don't know what to say.

There are only a few outcomes to this:
1.) You're repeating your tactic by going to the same spot (your fault)
2.) You're advancing too far and they saw your ultimate through a wall (your fault)

When you say you "normally camp the objective" that leads me to believe you chose option 1. A solution to this is to hide in the air on a path to the objective rather than at the objective and vary your travel distance each round. When you ambush someone, you do it before they get to their destination, not after.



You are beyond saving with logic. I'm sorry, I'm so, so, sorry.

Oh please almighty god, please shine your light of wisdom upon me and try to teach me how to play the game since u r clearly so good. Please let me know your guide to proscallion keys to victory, i cant wait, list them step by step and sell the guide on ebay, rich overnight.

[brett friggin favre]

rap isn't underpowered, however it is easily countered by skill, awareness, and anticipation. it takes a sharp mind and a good eye for hiding spots to be successful with it. you have to anticipate where the enemy's going to go, where they're going to look, how many there will be, and you need to be somewhere they won't look and that has an easily accessible exit route.

[Chikun]

Oh please almighty god, please shine your light of wisdom upon me and try to teach me how to play the game since u r clearly so good. Please let me know your guide to proscallion keys to victory, i cant wait, list them step by step and sell the guide on ebay, rich overnight.

If you read that first part I posted you would be off to a good start. But as Brett said, it can be easily countered unless you can avoid getting stuck.

[Blackmage]

We have a number of people who can use it well.

But here are the tips I use: don't camp right on the hosties or bomb, as you said, a necklace can end you. Do it a couple of yards out. Try to do it above eye level, not at. Know when there are enemies around, so you don't get seen. If you need to, just hide uncloaked. Don't hide in the same places. Don't hide in the middle of the path, hide off the side, so you have sight. Do not hide in normal camping spots. Learn when there are people you just don't want to chase, wait for the next person.

Oh look, most of this is what Chikun said.... Amazing....

[HypeRNT]

We have a number of people who can use it well.

But here are the tips I use: don't camp right on the hosties or bomb, as you said, a necklace can end you. Do it a couple of yards out. Try to do it above eye level, not at. Know when there are enemies around, so you don't get seen. If you need to, just hide uncloaked. Don't hide in the same places. Don't hide in the middle of the path, hide off the side, so you have sight. Do not hide in normal camping spots. Learn when there are people you just don't want to chase, wait for the next person.

Oh look, most of this is what Chikun said.... Amazing....

Who r these *number of people* that you are speaking of? first of all, i havent seen u or half the peopel that posted in this thread playing in the server or even using the race, second, the race is way underpowered, it has a high level requirement for some odd reason, a crit blade that basically never crits, and an ult that reveals your position thru walls*lawl* now you can say as much as you want about how AWESOME this race is and how you just need to be "GOOD" and "SMART" to play it, but at the end of the day, the race is the weakest of the knife races, and the weakest race in the server period, and this is shown by peoples kdr and lack of playing time with it.

[Blackmage]

I believe it's Wolf is the main one. There are a few. Cyber might have been another. If Spasm wasn't I'd be surprised. I can go positive with it. Problem is, if I wanted to play a defensive class, I'd play Human. Being a defensive class, most people won't play it, because most people on our server are heavy offensive, and we have a plethora of those, including other knife races. If they want to knife, there are around six gun races that can knife with the best, as well as the other knife races being offensive as well.

I don't pay attention to many players who play a variety of races, I just know people who are good at the game.

The crit is quite powerful. I'd prefer if it was x4 instead of only x3, but x3 one hits most races, even if they have periapt of health.

As for power, it is comparable to flame pred. Same speed, an alternate camouflage ability. His damage ability kills, Preds slows. Weapon Drop and Full invisibility both are special abilities. You just need to play the race correctly. Flame pred requires approaching them, Raps waits for the approach. Weakest depends on what you mean. Pano is similarly "weak". Shadow of the Void is a gimmick race. Warden is easily shut down. Low KDR and lack of play is due to people not wanting to play/learn it. It's actually been played almost 16 hours the past two days.

THE ULTIMATE IS NOT MEANT TO BE SPAMMED! YOU USE IT TO GET INTO POSITION WHEN NO ONE IS AROUND! As such, the fact that it is visible through walls is something that requires it to be played right, something we could use for another race *cough*. Another point: this can be used to bait.

As for "seeing us", you play between 8:00 and 22:00. I play between 23:00 and 4:00, with a few exceptions, and have very limited weekend play time. In fact, my 16 hours the past week beats your 12. Then, Stars plays 22:00-6:00. We just don't play at the same time. Brett and Chikun haven't played much in the past couple weeks, however. BTW: You (http://www.ibisgaming.com/wcs_stats/player.php?id=27063) Me (http://www.ibisgaming.com/wcs_stats/player.php?id=490) Stars (http://www.ibisgaming.com/wcs_stats/player.php?id=191) On the other hand, if you just don't remember playing with, you've just forgotten, I've played with you a number of times in the past.

[Chikun]

I think this weekend I'll play Rap and see how I do. It might be worth posting a demo. That also gives me an idea for future scrims.

[StarsMine]

hyperrnt.... o.o wow fail post is fail
everyone in this topic are wcs players.

I have a problem calling rapscallion a "defensive" class when It has no defensive skills. He cant back out and hide, as soon as he is found he is fucked, he has 100hp, easily killed, crit is fucking useless with the proc rate so low, its dumb luck getting a kill with it, not skill. The fact that you have to just sit there and hope they have to both run into you and get proced on makes for a terrible race. Its not that people dont know how to play it, its just a terrible race. For a race that has been out for as long as it has been, the average kdr being .5 is just really bad.

http://www.ibisgaming.com/wcs_stats/player.php?id=17387
The ONLY race rapscallion has a chance against is another rapscallion, with a 1.0 KD (could it be anything else?), unless you count no race, but thats usually playeed by people who dont know how to pick a race.


The stats dont lie here. Its not that people dont know how to play it, its that even playing it "properly" you cant get a decent score.

[Masskid]

I wouldn't really call it at "defensive" class, more like an ambushing class... It relys on surprise more then any other class

[HypeRNT]

I believe it's Wolf is the main one. There are a few. Cyber might have been another. If Spasm wasn't I'd be surprised. I can go positive with it. Problem is, if I wanted to play a defensive class, I'd play Human. Being a defensive class, most people won't play it, because most people on our server are heavy offensive, and we have a plethora of those, including other knife races. If they want to knife, there are around six gun races that can knife with the best, as well as the other knife races being offensive as well.

I don't pay attention to many players who play a variety of races, I just know people who are good at the game.

The crit is quite powerful. I'd prefer if it was x4 instead of only x3, but x3 one hits most races, even if they have periapt of health.

As for power, it is comparable to flame pred. Same speed, an alternate camouflage ability. His damage ability kills, Preds slows. Weapon Drop and Full invisibility both are special abilities. You just need to play the race correctly. Flame pred requires approaching them, Raps waits for the approach. Weakest depends on what you mean. Pano is similarly "weak". Shadow of the Void is a gimmick race. Warden is easily shut down. Low KDR and lack of play is due to people not wanting to play/learn it. It's actually been played almost 16 hours the past two days.

THE ULTIMATE IS NOT MEANT TO BE SPAMMED! YOU USE IT TO GET INTO POSITION WHEN NO ONE IS AROUND! As such, the fact that it is visible through walls is something that requires it to be played right, something we could use for another race *cough*. Another point: this can be used to bait.

As for "seeing us", you play between 8:00 and 22:00. I play between 23:00 and 4:00, with a few exceptions, and have very limited weekend play time. In fact, my 16 hours the past week beats your 12. Then, Stars plays 22:00-6:00. We just don't play at the same time. Brett and Chikun haven't played much in the past couple weeks, however. BTW: You (http://www.ibisgaming.com/wcs_stats/player.php?id=27063) Me (http://www.ibisgaming.com/wcs_stats/player.php?id=490) Stars (http://www.ibisgaming.com/wcs_stats/player.php?id=191) On the other hand, if you just don't remember playing with, you've just forgotten, I've played with you a number of times in the past.

Cyber playing rap? maybe while lvling it long ago, spasm playing rap? yeah right if rap isnt molecule or has the words vaga in it hes not on it. i dont think any1 here has said that the ult should be spammed, it just shouldn't be seen thru walls..... I sometimes feel like some of the people in here get offended if some1 disagrees or says something about the server, no matter how minor it is. The server is great, the races r awesome, no1 is debating that, what some people in here are saying myself included is that THIS particular race is pretty weak/unbalanced. You are comparing flame pred with rap? thats like comparing USA basketball team with Nigeria(record beating on those guys) rap has great speed which is awesome but what can i do with that speed? lets say by some miracle i stab a guy then what? the crit is so terrible that i have to hit a guy 2-5 times depending on health increases evasion and my crit proc going of. The ult itself is one of the worst things about it, id rather not have any invi then one that reveals me to other players thru walls before i can even see them....

I completely agree with starsmine, and i also think that if the knife proc was increased to lets say vagalion level, it would actually be a pretty nice race considering it would proc alot more often as well as would be more balanced because you would still have to play very smart with it, but it would actually payoff. At the end of the day, these are just simple suggestions that would help improve the race or if found not necessary just a nice thought to show that the players who play here actually care enough to post and therefor should be encouraged to do so without having the fear of being flammed.

[meatspin]

Before Diablo 3 got old, I used to play League of Legends when I got bored of this WCS server. Now, it is the other way around. These new races are retarded and make it almost pointless to play almost any older races once you have them at maximum level. It's getting to the point where I think every new race from now on will automatically have an ability that lets them fly if not be able to get to enemy spawn within the first 5 seconds of the round. This feature is non-existent in almost any RTS like Warcraft aside from Arbiter teleport in Starcraft. Please keep it simple and strategic.

[Blackmage]

Masskid: I group things into "offensive, defensive, support". Of the three, ambushing would be defensive, or support, but I'd go with defensive.


The stats dont lie here.

I have enough background in stats to know that you're right. I don't have enough to explain what it says though. Your statement about raps vs raps should have been a clue.

As for having no defensive skills, first, the ulti is. Second, the combinations of skills leads to it being a defensive class.


its dumb luck getting a kill with it, not skill.

So is Mr. "I have an awp". It's also strategy required. Back knives are what you're supposed to be trying for. I'm also pretty sure this race would be much better in a server without other 100% invis races.

Hyper... Do you actually play the server? I mean really? Spasm? He's mr. murder everyone as a Human. Also, believe it or not, when you're good at a race, but don't want to play a race, you don't play it. So, yes, you're probably right about Cyber. I fall into the same category.

As for your comparison of Raps vs Flame... And what does FP do? How often do they NOT have to stab the same enemy at least as often as Raps? Sure, they can weapon drop, this helps. They can burn, and this helps against knifers or vagas. The proc of raps kills people. The ultimate of Raps helps to lure or evade enemies. The ultimate of Flame helps if they've got an enemy without a necklace nearby, and have died. I will admit Flame has the upper hand in the health department.

BTW: a few comments. A: We have one more race to release before we worry about actual balance changes, or something close to that... Plans within plans and all that. B: These belong in a future balance thread, or even just in Raps thread, not in a derailed thread. C: Given how flawed your "logic" is, your opinions leave something to be desired. D: I flame you, because honestly, you're not a likeable person. You can't take a hint. You like to insult people. I assume you actually like the server and are trying to help it, but the people here, myself included, have rather large egos. Look through some of my posts. I will fight like you're fighting, for similarly unliked positions. I respect what you seem to be trying to do, I just don't respect your position.

"I sometimes feel like some of the people in here get offended if some1 disagrees or says something about the server, no matter how minor it is."

Usually, yes.

Kudos and welcome to Ibis,

~Blackmage

Meat: Heck, it's absent from most FPS game too. Which is why it's here. WCS is made to be different, and impressive. Flight and high speed are GREAT. As well, yes, a large number of our races are fast/mobile, and/or designed to stop fast/mobile races. That's correct too. If you can't find use for the first races, heck, even 3 of the 4 original races, you're doing strategy wrong :) The point is that you need to adapt. Pick the race for the situation, force the enemy to change. It's always great to force a spiderman to change off because they can't buy a lace AND a gun, and are shut down by athena or NE. Heck, human (race number 2, LOL) shuts down most speed races hardcore, and then some. Our server is all about the offensive. We don't go for subtlety often, and it shows in raps. Be quick or be dead. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vo6Cg5-JWIQ) :)

[HypeRNT]

Masskid: I group things into "offensive, defensive, support". Of the three, ambushing would be defensive, or support, but I'd go with defensive.



I have enough background in stats to know that you're right. I don't have enough to explain what it says though. Your statement about raps vs raps should have been a clue.

As for having no defensive skills, first, the ulti is. Second, the combinations of skills leads to it being a defensive class.



So is Mr. "I have an awp". It's also strategy required. Back knives are what you're supposed to be trying for. I'm also pretty sure this race would be much better in a server without other 100% invis races.

Hyper... Do you actually play the server? I mean really? Spasm? He's mr. murder everyone as a Human. Also, believe it or not, when you're good at a race, but don't want to play a race, you don't play it. So, yes, you're probably right about Cyber. I fall into the same category.

As for your comparison of Raps vs Flame... And what does FP do? How often do they NOT have to stab the same enemy at least as often as Raps? Sure, they can weapon drop, this helps. They can burn, and this helps against knifers or vagas. The proc of raps kills people. The ultimate of Raps helps to lure or evade enemies. The ultimate of Flame helps if they've got an enemy without a necklace nearby, and have died. I will admit Flame has the upper hand in the health department.

BTW: a few comments. A: We have one more race to release before we worry about actual balance changes, or something close to that... Plans within plans and all that. B: These belong in a future balance thread, or even just in Raps thread, not in a derailed thread. C: Given how flawed your "logic" is, your opinions leave something to be desired. D: I flame you, because honestly, you're not a likeable person. You can't take a hint. You like to insult people. I assume you actually like the server and are trying to help it, but the people here, myself included, have rather large egos. Look through some of my posts. I will fight like you're fighting, for similarly unliked positions. I respect what you seem to be trying to do, I just don't respect your position.

"I sometimes feel like some of the people in here get offended if some1 disagrees or says something about the server, no matter how minor it is."

Usually, yes.

Kudos and welcome to Ibis,

~Blackmage

Edit: I'll get to meat when I get back.

First, that is your opinion it isn't *logic*, my logic isn't flawed its pretty freaking obvious to anyone who isn't on your nut sack. second that is the biggest joke of a post ever, you really think of comparing flame pred with rap as it even being close? You actually made me laugh out loud, flame pred not only procs often, has amazing invisibility, and an ult that drops people even if they fail to get the kill, this of course not counting setting people on fire=insta death or dropping their weapons=insta deadx2 or being able to have 190 hp. You also consider raps ult to be something thats great? or this so called defensive ability? Wut? HIS ULT SHOWS THRU WALLS, HE CANT MOVE its not like u walk past a freaking rap that went invis in front of your face. OBV if he goes invis at his freaking spwn at the start of the round he wont be seen, as would any other race invis or not.

Now as to your comments about me, you flame me because you feel it is your right to always correct people and give your opinion as its the law or something, which is wrong. I have not been to this PARTICULAR server for as long as you, yes no one is debating that, but i have my fair share of wcs experience from css or 1.6 aswell. Im not a likable person? says who? you and your *Home boys*? why the fuck would i give a shit on who likes me on a forum trololol, i have absolutely 0 problems in the server when im playing and have plenty of people on my friends list wcs admins included, so once again your OPINION is just YOUR OPINION and lets keep it at that.


And as to meatspins comment, i do understand were you are coming from. There is so much crazy flying crap now in the server that i feel like we need some crazy huge maps or play crazy indoors maps to prevent yourself from being owned spwn to spwn or having to defuse the bomb 5-10 seconds into the round(cable)(dolls)(dust)(DE_crackhouse) and other maps, i almost feel like some of the flying races shouldn't be able to plant the bomb just from the amount of distance they get to cover. But at the same time, it is a wcs server, custom races and older races pick your poison, some would say variety is good, but i guess it all depends on how much of it can you take.

[Erdenay]

have yet to see a rap being played well on any map by anyone. Have yet to see SOMEONE play rap, the race is underplayed and pretty useless period, anyone that would even argue this clearly doesn't play enough on the server or is thinking of a different race.

I have seen masskid going 18-2 day before yesterday. Granted it was in a stacked team against mostly noobs, but it still proves it can be played well. However, I can say that I have yet to see rapscalion do something like that against really good teams or stacked teams.


Stop using your ultimate at ground level, if you're going to tell me that the other team is going to advance down pathways at the start of a round looking at the sky trying to find you... I just don't know what to say.

There are only a few outcomes to this:
1.) You're repeating your tactic by going to the same spot (your fault)
2.) You're advancing too far and they saw your ultimate through a wall (your fault)

When you say you "normally camp the objective" that leads me to believe you chose option 1. A solution to this is to hide in the air on a path to the objective rather than at the objective and vary your travel distance each round. When you ambush someone, you do it before they get to their destination, not after.

Trust me, I do these things most of the time. The only thing that I'm sometimes guilty of would be #2, but even that is fairly rare. I never stay on the ground level when I don't have to, but since rap is easy to kill and really easy to counter, if they know the team has a raps, most of the time they will search for it due to easy and high xp (compared to other classes). I never, ever go to the same spot with raps if that's the same as I did last round - I sometimes stay within the rage ~ 50 - 100 feet, but same spot - that's just suicide.

I'm not saying this race can't be played well - I've had very good scores with it too (20-3 is one instance I remember), but that still does not prove it's not underpowered. In fact, I find myself normally doing better if I don't use the ultimate (or barely use it) as it normally gives better chances to do well.


rap isn't underpowered, however it is easily countered by skill, awareness, and anticipation. it takes a sharp mind and a good eye for hiding spots to be successful with it. you have to anticipate where the enemy's going to go, where they're going to look, how many there will be, and you need to be somewhere they won't look and that has an easily accessible exit route.

Exactly... And still with even these skills it's very difficult to do well against normal teams (I'm not talking about raping noobs).


Who r these *number of people* that you are speaking of? first of all, i havent seen u or half the peopel that posted in this thread playing in the server or even using the race, second, the race is way underpowered, it has a high level requirement for some odd reason, a crit blade that basically never crits, and an ult that reveals your position thru walls*lawl* now you can say as much as you want about how AWESOME this race is and how you just need to be "GOOD" and "SMART" to play it, but at the end of the day, the race is the weakest of the knife races, and the weakest race in the server period, and this is shown by peoples kdr and lack of playing time with it.


I believe it's Wolf is the main one. There are a few. Cyber might have been another. If Spasm wasn't I'd be surprised. I can go positive with it. Problem is, if I wanted to play a defensive class, I'd play Human. Being a defensive class, most people won't play it, because most people on our server are heavy offensive, and we have a plethora of those, including other knife races. If they want to knife, there are around six gun races that can knife with the best, as well as the other knife races being offensive as well.

I don't pay attention to many players who play a variety of races, I just know people who are good at the game.

The crit is quite powerful. I'd prefer if it was x4 instead of only x3, but x3 one hits most races, even if they have periapt of health.

As for power, it is comparable to flame pred. Same speed, an alternate camouflage ability. His damage ability kills, Preds slows. Weapon Drop and Full invisibility both are special abilities. You just need to play the race correctly. Flame pred requires approaching them, Raps waits for the approach. Weakest depends on what you mean. Pano is similarly "weak". Shadow of the Void is a gimmick race. Warden is easily shut down. Low KDR and lack of play is due to people not wanting to play/learn it. It's actually been played almost 16 hours the past two days.

THE ULTIMATE IS NOT MEANT TO BE SPAMMED! YOU USE IT TO GET INTO POSITION WHEN NO ONE IS AROUND! As such, the fact that it is visible through walls is something that requires it to be played right, something we could use for another race *cough*. Another point: this can be used to bait.

As for "seeing us", you play between 8:00 and 22:00. I play between 23:00 and 4:00, with a few exceptions, and have very limited weekend play time. In fact, my 16 hours the past week beats your 12. Then, Stars plays 22:00-6:00. We just don't play at the same time. Brett and Chikun haven't played much in the past couple weeks, however. BTW: You (http://www.ibisgaming.com/wcs_stats/player.php?id=27063) Me (http://www.ibisgaming.com/wcs_stats/player.php?id=490) Stars (http://www.ibisgaming.com/wcs_stats/player.php?id=191) On the other hand, if you just don't remember playing with, you've just forgotten, I've played with you a number of times in the past.

Well, I've not seen wolf actually own with that race... Or he was doing bad. Cyber? No. There have been only 2 people in the server that I've actually seen do really well in the server with this race - masskid and Brett. However, even then when they owned, they really didn't play against a really good opposition... When they did, they did not do that well... Have I seen them with positive kdr against decent opposition? Yes. Have I done it? Yes. Have few others done it? Yes. That's not the point though - the thing that I'm trying to point out that this race is just not as good as other races in the server. You can still do well with rapscalion - and some people do that, but for amount of levels it requires and for the skills it gives back compared to other races in wcs, it just doesn't stand on it's own.

Please understand me - I'm not actually saying that it's impossible to do well with this race: that would be nonsense. I am neither petitioning for a change as I know that will not happen. I do, however, try to point out that while Ibis wcs server is balanced fairly well, there are races which are underpowered or overpowered and just don't really add anything to the balance.

[CYBER]

I dont play rapscallion against a strong team unless both vagas are taken. The ONLY reason i dnt play that race often is not because it's underpowered, but because 90% of the time i play races i need to level, when i actually DO become maxxed, i try to get the vagas because im fucking good at it. i can play rap too, i can go decent kdr or go really bad, it depends on my days.

So dnt use the 'cyber doesnt play rapscallion' excuse, because i do, but only when i cant play vagas which are more suitable to my game style.

I play agressive, im not affraid to take 98 damage rushing close to someone if it guarantees me the kill. THIS is not suitable if i play rap which needs to be camped. If people dont play the race, any race, its not always because of the race itself. It also depends on players and their style.

I can see tom for example playing athena, BM, night elf, rAp etc because he doesnt play agressive. He plays smart and laid back, which is why he is almost always last to survive, whereas im 90% dead within the first 1.5 minutes, but i'd have taken down at least 3-4 enemies with me...

If you dont likethe race, dnt play it, rap is not the best race sure, i find it underpowered for MY gamestyle, but others might be better...

[Blackmage]

First, that is your opinion it isn't *logic*, my logic isn't flawed its pretty freaking obvious to anyone who isn't on your nut sack.

His is normal, mine in parentheses.

Have yet to see SOMEONE play rap, the race is underplayed(this part is fine) and pretty useless period,(this is fail in logic, to know it's useless, you'd have to have seen it at a decent amount)

anyone that would even argue this clearly doesn't play enough on the server or is thinking of a different race. (I'm sorry that 500+ hours list on Psychostats, 900+ listed on gametracker isn't enough. I am curious how your 400+ hours on either makes you qualified enough to comment, however. Though I do acknowledge that he, in a later post starts his "I've been on many servers" again)

the race is way underpowered, it has a high level requirement for some odd reason, a crit blade that basically never crits, and an ult that reveals your position thru walls(the only logic here is you're lazy, I can think of a number of reasons for all those, some of which I've mentioned before.)

the race is the weakest of the knife races, and the weakest race in the server period, and this is shown by peoples kdr and lack of playing time with it.(this shows that people don't play the race, not that it's weak.)

You are comparing flame pred with rap? thats like comparing USA basketball team with Nigeria(record beating on those guys) rap has great speed which is awesome but what can i do with that speed? lets say by some miracle i stab a guy then what? the crit is so terrible that i have to hit a guy 2-5 times depending on health increases evasion and my crit proc going of. The ult itself is one of the worst things about it, id rather not have any invi then one that reveals me to other players thru walls before i can even see them...(I gave you a response showing the issues in this one already. Denial is the first stage of something...)

Yes, perfect logic, I admi... Never mind, I'm not that stupid.

As you continued the FP vs Raps:

Flame pred has an ult that suffers from the EXACT SAME PROBLEMS RAPS DOES (lace kills it, only works when they are close) plus is necessitates dying, and can't be used for more than one thing. It has decent invis, as does Raps, just different. Both are easy for some people to see, hard for others. Setting people on fire = about nothing. If you die to it, grats. Weapon drop can FUBAR people who have auto-weapon switch on pickup, I admit. However, guess what? You still get shot or knifed by many enemies. Again, if this is auto death for you, L2P. This ability is also useless on other knife races, something that can't be said about raps. Raps ability doesn't proc as often, correct, but 1 hits most things(including a FP with health). 190vs150 is actually not as powerful as 100 vs 140. 140 is 3 right clicks, 100 is 2. 190 is 3 or 4, 150 is 3. All 4 are 1 back-knife. Against guns, the 40 extra HP is about 2 bullets, or less, and 150vs190 matters in few situations against gun races.

And you not knowing or caring about how to use the ultimate really isn't any of my concern anymore. It is useful, if you use it correctly.


I have not been to this PARTICULAR server for as long as you, yes no one is debating that, but i have my fair share of wcs experience from css or 1.6 aswell.

We've been over this before. To quote the same credentials as last time. "I've played a number of Warcraft servers, both 1.6 and Source." Yay?


Im not a likable person? says who?

You're snarky and rude, (http://www.ibisgaming.com/forums/showthread.php/9656-Next-time-someone-bitches-about-impalance?p=141955#post141955) you can't take hints, (http://www.ibisgaming.com/forums/showthread.php/7884-Add-Fy_iceworld?p=122639#post122639) you're arrogant (http://www.ibisgaming.com/forums/showthread.php/7884-Add-Fy_iceworld?p=122877#post122877). I could go look through more of your posts if you need more examples of things that are, in the real world, considered unlikable.


why the fuck would i give a shit on who likes me on a forum trololol, i have absolutely 0 problems in the server when im playing and have plenty of people on my friends list wcs admins included, so once again your OPINION is just YOUR OPINION and lets keep it at that.

I dunno, maybe because you actually wanted people to pretend to take you seriously? I was just letting you know that it isn't everyone who gets flamed, that you and your ilk are just special cases. I also argue with tons of people here, but have them on my friend's list. First off, this shows nothing other than they clicked a button. Second off, we don't discuss the same things here and there, mostly.

Erdenay:

FYI was going by this statement, not my actually knowledge of Cyber on Raps :): This (http://www.ibisgaming.com/forums/showthread.php/6870-028-Rapscallion-200-v1.0.3?p=135482#post135482) On Wolf, I'd just have to wait to see what he said. I've not personally seen Brett play it (well) that I know of, hence not adding him. But mostly, it's why I said "I don't pay attention to many players who play a variety of races, I just know people who are good at the game." I'll also mention, once more, that KDR means jack, and is by NO means a way to tell if a race or player is doing well. Also, amount of levels doesn't mean "better". It can mean a number of things, including "knows how the server works". It also has to do with when it was added. Zero might remember, some other people (Maynard) might know.

[Erdenay]

Flame pred has an ult that suffers from the EXACT SAME PROBLEMS RAPS DOES (lace kills it, only works when they are close) plus is necessitates dying, and can't be used for more than one thing. It has decent invis, as does Raps, just different. Both are easy for some people to see, hard for others. Setting people on fire = about nothing. If you die to it, grats. Weapon drop can FUBAR people who have auto-weapon switch on pickup, I admit. However, guess what? You still get shot or knifed by many enemies. Again, if this is auto death for you, L2P. This ability is also useless on other knife races, something that can't be said about raps. Raps ability doesn't proc as often, correct, but 1 hits most things(including a FP with health). 190vs150 is actually not as powerful as 100 vs 140. 140 is 3 right clicks, 100 is 2. 190 is 3 or 4, 150 is 3. All 4 are 1 back-knife. Against guns, the 40 extra HP is about 2 bullets, or less, and 150vs190 matters in few situations against gun races.

I do have to disagree with you a little bit here - flame pred's invisibity is the best in the server barring the completely invisible AND it can't be dispelled by flashlight. While I don't really agree with Hyper that it's useless, raps is definitely worse off than flame predator. Setting an enemy is actually an extremely useful skill - it slows down the enemy (which is the best part about) and it also somewhat kills the vision, so that you can jump high after that and go down and kill the victim. Dropping the gun is also a pretty useful skill, although not quite as good as flames. I do agree with you about the ulti somewhat - it's not really that good and I barely ever kill people with it.

Now, for raps - flickering shadows are nearly useless and while they do give an advantage, it's extremely minor. The crit barely ever works, so it's not that useful and the ultimate is... Eh at best. It does have a better levitation than flame pred, so that's a plus for raps. As far my comparison:

Raps crit < setting a person on fire
Flickering shadows < invisibility
raps levitation and speed > flame pred's levitation and speed (barely)
invisibility = nova (although I do like nova more as ulti for flame pred than invisibility for raps)

For me, flame pred definitely edges out rapscalion by quite a bit.


And you not knowing or caring about how to use the ultimate really isn't any of my concern anymore. It is useful, if you use it correctly.

It is somewhat useful, yes, but can you compare to most of other ultimates around?


FYI was going by this statement, not my actually knowledge of Cyber on Raps :): This (http://www.ibisgaming.com/forums/showthread.php/6870-028-Rapscallion-200-v1.0.3?p=135482#post135482) On Wolf, I'd just have to wait to see what he said. I've not personally seen Brett play it (well) that I know of, hence not adding him. But mostly, it's why I said "I don't pay attention to many players who play a variety of races, I just know people who are good at the game." I'll also mention, once more, that KDR means jack, and is by NO means a way to tell if a race or player is doing well. Also, amount of levels doesn't mean "better". It can mean a number of things, including "knows how the server works". It also has to do with when it was added. Zero might remember, some other people (Maynard) might know.

Fair enough about that.

As far as jack's KDR goes... I'm fairly certain you'll see it go up once more people will max it and whore it. Yes, kdr is not everything... But it definitely has some truth in it and raps is a fair example.

High amounts of level = a lot of xp = juicy target. Thus people tend to concentrate and look for you (I've seen it quite a bit), thus your life is even harder.

---------- Post added at 12:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:44 AM ----------


I can see tom for example playing athena, BM, night elf, rAp etc because he doesnt play agressive. He plays smart and laid back, which is why he is almost always last to survive, whereas im 90% dead within the first 1.5 minutes, but i'd have taken down at least 3-4 enemies with me...

If you dont likethe race, dnt play it, rap is not the best race sure, i find it underpowered for MY gamestyle, but others might be better...

Actually, really depends on a race I play - I play super aggressive with santa, molecule, spider, flame pred, normally jack too. If I'm playing a defencive/support class, then yes, I normally play very conservatively. And night elf? lol. Raps is better of being aggresive with health, cloak, lace then defencive, to be fair...

[Chikun]

lol went to check in on this thread and saw people posting manifestos...

ABANDON SHIP!

[brett friggin favre]

holy fucking shit, cyber's post was one of the shortest on this page! quick everyone, screenshot it before he edits war and peace into it!

[acolyte_to_jippity]

holy fucking shit, cyber's post was one of the shortest on this page! quick everyone, screenshot it before he edits war and peace into it!

that's only because he didn't quote someone 3 times, each of which included ANOTHER quote or two.

[Blackmage]

" It is somewhat useful, yes, but can you compare to most of other ultimates around?"

Sure: Most races are defined by their ulti, Raps is one of them. Some are supporting their others skills (Warden) or are off the wall with the rest of the character (Blood Mage).

Also, "that KDR means jack" = "that KDR means jack shit". Not talking about the race.

" Raps crit < setting a person on fire"

I might accept setting on fire + weapon drop. Just setting on fire only happens (just over) 1 time in 10 more often. (22 vs 35) If you feel that slowing them so you might kill them is better than straight up killing them, with such a low difference on proc rates, then we're going to have to just agree to disagree.

[HypeRNT]

Blackmage His is normal, mine in parentheses.**because you aren't correct, and in this case you are wrong no matter how flawed your logic is**

Have yet to see SOMEONE play rap, the race is underplayed(this part is fine) and pretty useless period,(this is fail in logic, to know it's useless, you'd have to have seen it at a decent amount)**Is there some reason that i havent seen it a decent amount?**

anyone that would even argue this clearly doesn't play enough on the server or is thinking of a different race. (I'm sorry that 500+ hours list on Psychostats, 900+ listed on gametracker isn't enough. I am curious how your 400+ hours on either makes you qualified enough to comment, however. Though I do acknowledge that he, in a later post starts his "I've been on many servers" again)**yes my 400 hours outmatches any of yours not only by skill, experience and anything else you wana throw in there that makes me worth more then u as a player alone, this can be proved by a number of things, stats are one of them, so that statement is retarded.**

the race is way underpowered, it has a high level requirement for some odd reason, a crit blade that basically never crits, and an ult that reveals your position thru walls(the only logic here is you're lazy, I can think of a number of reasons for all those, some of which I've mentioned before.)**what is this response to? im lazy ? huh? im not even sure how to respond to this useless response**

the race is the weakest of the knife races, and the weakest race in the server period, and this is shown by peoples kdr and lack of playing time with it.(this shows that people don't play the race, not that it's weak.)**you really have nothing to say anymore do you? IT SHOWS THAT ITS WEAK, hence kdr showing people cant get kills with it, hence why they dont wana play it, hence why no1 plays it in the server**

You are comparing flame pred with rap? thats like comparing USA basketball team with Nigeria(record beating on those guys) rap has great speed which is awesome but what can i do with that speed? lets say by some miracle i stab a guy then what? the crit is so terrible that i have to hit a guy 2-5 times depending on health increases evasion and my crit proc going of. The ult itself is one of the worst things about it, id rather not have any invi then one that reveals me to other players thru walls before i can even see them...(I gave you a response showing the issues in this one already. Denial is the first stage of something...) **i know you responded, and i said your response was garbage, take your own advice**

Yes, perfect logic, I admi... Never mind, I'm not that stupid.

As you continued the FP vs Raps:

Flame pred has an ult that suffers from the EXACT SAME PROBLEMS RAPS DOES (lace kills it, only works when they are close)**thats not the point, lace kills it but its other skills help out, as were rap has nothing besides praying the crit goes off** plus is necessitates dying, and can't be used for more than one thing. It has decent invis, as does Raps, just different. Both are easy for some people to see**u mean rap right?**, hard for others. Setting people on fire = about nothing. If you die to it, grats. Weapon drop can FUBAR people who have auto-weapon switch on pickup, I admit. However, guess what? You still get shot or knifed by many enemies. Again, if this is auto death for you, L2P. This ability is also useless on other knife races, something that can't be said about raps. Raps ability doesn't proc as often, correct, but 1 hits most things(including a FP with health). 190vs150 is actually not as powerful as 100 vs 140. 140 is 3 right clicks, 100 is 2. 190 is 3 or 4, 150 is 3. All 4 are 1 back-knife. Against guns, the 40 extra HP is about 2 bullets, or less, and 150vs190 matters in few situations against gun races.

And you not knowing or caring about how to use the ultimate really isn't any of my concern anymore. It is useful, if you use it correctly.**really? well now you clearly have nothing to respond anymore that is of any use.**



We've been over this before. To quote the same credentials as last time. "I've played a number of Warcraft servers, both 1.6 and Source." Yay?**im sorry, my credentials when it comes to FPS are 2x combined of ALMOST anyone else from your clan, unless you have some cevo-p players in other fps games or tgl/cg/cal/ or hell even twl, and yes esea and lan's aswell, that is facts and not opinion btw**



You're snarky and rude, (http://www.ibisgaming.com/forums/showthread.php/9656-Next-time-someone-bitches-about-impalance?p=141955#post141955) you can't take hints, (http://www.ibisgaming.com/forums/showthread.php/7884-Add-Fy_iceworld?p=122639#post122639) you're arrogant (http://www.ibisgaming.com/forums/showthread.php/7884-Add-Fy_iceworld?p=122877#post122877). I could go look through more of your posts if you need more examples of things that are, in the real world, considered unlikable.**once again you are going of your own opinions, not many things i say are rude or out of line to people who arent asses to me first, please find those posts of yours and il find you some that are before that, like i said your OPINION not fact so please treat it as that.**



I dunno, maybe because you actually wanted people to pretend to take you seriously? **pretend? i feel like you are confused or lost, saying rap is a bad race has nothing to do with pretending, its a FACT based of stats,playing time, and peoples responses to it, its honestly as simple as that so you need to hop on board or let it go**I was just letting you know that it isn't everyone who gets flamed, that you and your ilk are just special cases. I also argue with tons of people here, but have them on my friend's list. First off, this shows nothing other than they clicked a button. Second off, we don't discuss the same things here and there, mostly.

Erdenay:

FYI was going by this statement, not my actually knowledge of Cyber on Raps :): This (http://www.ibisgaming.com/forums/showthread.php/6870-028-Rapscallion-200-v1.0.3?p=135482#post135482) On Wolf, I'd just have to wait to see what he said. I've not personally seen Brett play it (well) that I know of, hence not adding him. But mostly, it's why I said "I don't pay attention to many players who play a variety of races, I just know people who are good at the game." I'll also mention, once more, that KDR means jack, and is by NO means a way to tell if a race or player is doing well. Also, amount of levels doesn't mean "better". It can mean a number of things, including "knows how the server works". It also has to do with when it was added. Zero might remember, some other people (Maynard) might know.

[StarsMine]

The fire is a more deffensive skill then the crit
They are slow, they cant see for shit, taking extra damage, and more often then not weaponless.

Flame preds are fast and hard to spot, and when you do spot them, they are not killed as easily has a rap with 100 hp. When the flame pred fails at its job to kill, they are usually close enough that their ultimate blows the guy up.

A rapescallion who fails to crit is a dead rapescallion, they are easy to spot, they cant run away and use their ultimate, it would just clue the enemy into where they are. A flame pred, or a vagalion that fails to crit has skills to back itself up on to either go for the second knife or get the fuck out of there.

There is no way that you can tell me the rapescallion is balanced. They arnt a defensive class, they have no defensive skill. they are not an offensive class, they cant take a bullet, or attack from a distance. they are not an asset to the team, with no team healing, team reviving, or wards to save a teammate, or prevent a respawn on the other side.

Being able to pull off a positive KDR does not mean its balanced, you can get a positive kdr in GG by going knife only, that does not mean it is as useful as an m4a1 or a shotgun.

[Erdenay]

Sure: Most races are defined by their ulti, Raps is one of them. Some are supporting their others skills (Warden) or are off the wall with the rest of the character (Blood Mage).

I completely disagree with this statement. Both warden's and bloodmage's ultimates are very useful (especially BM's) whereas rapscalion's ultimate isn't nowhere near as useful. The only ultimate that is worse than raps, IMHO, is undead's because that rarely procs and even then it's not as strong as flame predator's.


Also, "that KDR means jack" = "that KDR means jack shit". Not talking about the race.

My bad for misunderstanding, but even with changed understanding what you said, I still disagree. Kdr is a fairly good indication of how strong the race is compared to others and while it's definitely not perfect and has plenty of flaws, it should not be completely disregarded I.E. jack shit.


" Raps crit < setting a person on fire"

I might accept setting on fire + weapon drop. Just setting on fire only happens (just over) 1 time in 10 more often. (22 vs 35) If you feel that slowing them so you might kill them is better than straight up killing them, with such a low difference on proc rates, then we're going to have to just agree to disagree.

The reason for that is that rapscalion's crits just above once out of 5 while flame pred's hits more than once in 3 hits - that's a huge difference when it comes to knifing. Furthermore, if rapscalion does not get a backstab or a crit, it's more likely dead than not while flame pred has much better chances to still kill the person or at least retreat and try again. So, by the looks of it, we agree to disagree here.

[Masskid]

My bad for misunderstanding, but even with changed understanding what you said, I still disagree. Kdr is a fairly good indication of how strong the race is compared to others and while it's definitely not perfect and has plenty of flaws, it should not be completely disregarded I.E. jack shit.

Deathfire.... playing vaga... if i was new and saw him playing vaga i would think that race sucks.... so imo kdr is not a good judge. Kdr is better at judging the individual player

[Blackmage]

**Is there some reason that i havent seen it a decent amount?** Because people don't like to.

**yes my 400 hours outmatches any of yours not only by skill, experience and anything else you wana throw in there that makes me worth more then u as a player alone, this can be proved by a number of things, stats are one of them, so that statement is retarded.** Skill? If you're using the in game stat, sure. If you're using the actual meaning of that stat, I ask you, how would you know? If you're stalking me, I MIGHT accept that statement. Experience, again, if you're using the in game stat, maybe, I haven't compared. Real experience, I again ask, are you stalking me or just talking through your ass? I'm going to just throw this out here: Math skills. I obviously win there, since I know, 400 < 500 AND 400 < 900. Given your LOGIC was that TIME ALONE mattered... How was THIS logic of your NOT a fail, as I suggested? Some other things: knowledge of how Ibis works. Knowledge of how this server was before Orange Box.

**what is this response to? im lazy ? huh? im not even sure how to respond to this useless response** Lazy - 1. averse or disinclined to work, activity, or exertion; indolent. You know, declaring something underpowered without thinking. Since this is the case, I guess I'll list them out so you don't have to try to think of them yourself. For example, the odd reason I listed in the previous post. "It can mean a number of things, including "knows how the server works". It also has to do with when it was added." Which is something you REALLY should know if you have experience in other servers. Crit blade doesn't need to crit often, as it crits dead. The ult has ways to use the fact that you list there. These are not reasons to call something underpowered, these are reasons you don't like it.

**you really have nothing to say anymore do you? IT SHOWS THAT ITS WEAK, hence kdr showing people cant get kills with it, hence why they dont wana play it, hence why no1 plays it in the server** KDR does not mean it's weak. It means that it's not played, and the players who CAN get kills with it don't bother because they have races they'd rather play. KDR for a race is the culmination of all players. That list of hences was fail. Let me show you reality: Low KDR shows that it has low KDR. Hence, showing that the players that play it don't get kills with it. People see this, and hear the whining, and aren't willing to change their playstyle, hence not wanting to play it. This, plus those people who could wanting to play something else are why no one plays it in the server, and probably why it has low KDR. There, I corrected your fallacious train of logic.

**thats not the point, lace kills it but its other skills help out, as were rap has nothing besides praying the crit goes off** As you ignored half the point, you seem to know you're beaten here, so I'll let it sit.

**u mean rap right?** No, I have no issues seeing FP or Raps. Just because you have issues seeing FP does not mean others do. Just because you can see Raps does not mean others can. Hint: you are not alone in your bubble.

**really? well now you clearly have nothing to respond anymore that is of any use.** Oh, you're admitting you just can't do anything correctly? Oh, that would make life easier.

**im sorry, my credentials when it comes to FPS are 2x combined of ALMOST anyone else from your clan, unless you have some cevo-p players in other fps games or tgl/cg/cal/ or hell even twl, and yes esea and lan's aswell, that is facts and not opinion btw** Ok, now I'm sure of it. You REALLY don't know how things work in this place, I'm not in a clan. Oh, and that you enjoy stalking people. Also, given you are giving nothing but OPINIONS, I'm not sure you know what "facts" or "opinions" mean. All those things you listed may be relevant to you, but really, mean nothing to me. I care not about any of those groups. Being a member of them is no more relevant to credentials (beyond the correct statement of "I've been playing") than saying "I joined my local playboy bunny's guild". I do like how he only posts names of man's clubs, not that he's in them, and that he posts nothing about number, sub-genres, length or anything. He "suggests" he plays at a high level, and declares most(heh) of us don't. Oh, if one of those is actually a studio that makes FPS, I'm sorry I doubted you posted any useful credentials.

**once again you are going of your own opinions, not many things i say are rude or out of line to people who arent asses to me first, please find those posts of yours and il find you some that are before that, like i said your OPINION not fact so please treat it as that.** Those were all facts. You ARE snarky and rude. You ARE arrogant, as you so kindly proved in the prior statement again. You CAN'T take hints. You are obviously not well versed in the forums, because all three of those statements ARE links to just that, though like I said for arrogant, look above.

**pretend? i feel like you are confused or lost, saying rap is a bad race has nothing to do with pretending, its a FACT based of stats,playing time, and peoples responses to it, its honestly as simple as that so you need to hop on board or let it go** For all your claims of facts vs opinions, I like how your fact is actually an opinion. Do you SERIOUSLY not know what those words mean? You even acknowledge that it was an opinion, starting the word after the opinion is finished being stated. As for pretending please reread what was written. I was responding to:


why the fuck would i give a shit on who likes me on a forum trololol, i have absolutely 0 problems in the server when im playing and have plenty of people on my friends list wcs admins included, so once again your OPINION is just YOUR OPINION and lets keep it at that.

When you assume, ass out of u.



The fire is a more deffensive skill then the crit
They are slow, they cant see for shit, taking extra damage, and more often then not weaponless.

I won't deny the first or the second. The third depends on the player. The fourth can matter against damaged enemies, I admit. The last, perhaps my math is wrong, but isn't the chance of both triggering 14%? Not sure how this is often at all.


Flame preds are fast and hard to spot, and when you do spot them, they are not killed as easily has a rap with 100 hp. When the flame pred fails at its job to kill, they are usually close enough that their ultimate blows the guy up.

I can say the same for Raps on the first. I agreed with the second already, two extra hits ARE required. If they are close enough to damage, yes, they are close enough to explode. So they have a 40% to trigger, and is ignored by lace. Various races also will not be killed, and this only works if you kept them close enough.


A rapescallion who fails to crit is a dead rapescallion, they are easy to spot, they cant run away and use their ultimate, it would just clue the enemy into where they are. A flame pred, or a vagalion that fails to crit has skills to back itself up on to either go for the second knife or get the fuck out of there.

Er, explain how a FP can escape if a Raps can't if neither procced a skill? Failing that, Vaga, if Raps is supposed to be in it's ulti. Not saying you're wrong, I just don't follow this one.


There is no way that you can tell me the rapescallion is balanced. They arnt a defensive class, they have no defensive skill. they are not an offensive class, they cant take a bullet, or attack from a distance. they are not an asset to the team, with no team healing, team reviving, or wards to save a teammate, or prevent a respawn on the other side.

Culmination of skills, and the ultimate lead to it being a defensive class. As for asset, again, baiting and recon. I've said this before, so more agree to disagree.


Being able to pull off a positive KDR does not mean its balanced, you can get a positive kdr in GG by going knife only, that does not mean it is as useful as an m4a1 or a shotgun.

In comparison, not being able to pull off a positive KDR does not mean it's not balanced or useful. The fact that the vaga goes 60-2 doesn't mean anything if they can't win a round. Going 0-12 doesn't mean you're useless if you're being bait and recon. Going 0-32 doesn't mean the race is bad if it's being run by a bad player.

One problem for Raps(and somewhat vagas, sometimes FP) KDR in this WCS: the number of revivers.

Erdenay: Can I just ask you to read: what I said at the start carefully, your response, then your first sentence of your next response. Hint: I never said anything about the USEFULNESS of any of those. As for undead ulti... I didn't realize 70% wasn't that often.

KDR, by itself, doesn't mean anything. It is too easily padded, too easily abused, doesn't show anything but last hits and deaths. Doesn't show if you got respawned 15 times in wards. Doesn't show that you killed 30 AFKs a round for 30 rounds. It doesn't show that Player A can get 100 kills, 0 deaths over a night because he plays with noobs. What I should have said was: KDR without any reference shows jack.

"The reason for that is that rapscalion's crits just above once out of 5 while flame pred's hits more than once in 3 hits - that's a huge difference when it comes to knifing. Furthermore, if rapscalion does not get a backstab or a crit, it's more likely dead than not while flame pred has much better chances to still kill the person or at least retreat and try again. So, by the looks of it, we agree to disagree here."

It's actually higher than 1 in 5. It's close to... 22 in 100... or 1 in 4.5454. Stats and low numbers and all that. But, as I asked Stars, how is FP more likely to do either of those in the case of no proccing? Are we citing the 40 extra HP or is it something else? If it's the other 40 HP, I counter: Raps is supposed to have the surprise, so will be shot at less on the approach.

Masskid: I dare ANYONE to judge me by KDR :P

Looking at this response, Maths. Heh.

Also, heh, Cyber. We've had 2 races so far in the spotlight, and that's WITHOUT a stickey.

Edit, as a late aside, for those arguing to increase the power of Raps, how much would you feel changing his invis to true invis, same levels as FP, would increase his power? Would it be enough? Just curious.

[>>>Shots<<<]

Deathfire.... playing vaga... if i was new and saw him playing vaga i would think that race sucks.... so imo kdr is not a good judge. Kdr is better at judging the individual player
Deathfire....Playing Rapscallion... what do you think his KDR will be? KDR shows a mixture of skill+strength of race. When you play a powerful race (e.g., vegabond, molecule, Jack) you will certainly get better KDR compared to playing rapscallion, undead scourage.

[Blackmage]

I can deny anything I want! I deny you exist! Good day figment of my imagination!

I may make a serious response, I just wanted to say that :P As for me, my mind has gone.

Edit: Aww, you removed the "you can't deny" comment. Oh well.

[StarsMine]

KDR of a single person means little yes, but of ALL time played on it? I think that means a significant ammount. Yes deathfire playing vagabond would suck, however again, all time stats means more then one person. To pad a race with 4600 hours is highly unlikely

Rapescallions stats- http://www.ibisgaming.com/wcs_stats/player.php?id=17387
Vagabond stats - http://www.ibisgaming.com/wcs_stats/player.php?id=17387
Flame pred stats -http://www.ibisgaming.com/wcs_stats/player.php?id=11888

A flem pred can escape after not procing anything with its speed(the same), health, and invisibility (your argument that the visibility is different for different players is null here, some invis> opaque)
A flame pred has 40% chance to drop their weapon and a 35% chance to set them on fire. Both will keep the flame pred alive if the guy they are trying to knife has not yet droped, giving the flame pred the ability to either run or get another go at it. If the flame pred fails he blows up hugging the guy he was trying to kill.

Rapscallion has 22% chance to crit, if he fails to crit he is dead, running away is difficult, very difficult, they can see you and they dont have anything blocking their vision, slowing them down, or preventing them from shooting like a flame pred would. Their ultimate is useless as all it does is bring attention to their self, makes too much noise and is visible through walls.

[brett friggin favre]

brilliant thread is made about balance, or more precisely, imbalance, and its value in gaming.






people make 6 pages of replies about a race being imbalanced.




i believe the point has been lost. sadly.

[maynard]

brilliant thread is made about balance, or more precisely, imbalance, and its value in gaming.


people make 6 pages of replies about a race being imbalanced.

i believe the point has been lost. sadly.

I still find it amusing.

[StarsMine]

brilliant thread is made about balance, or more precisely, imbalance, and its value in gaming.






people make 6 pages of replies about a race being imbalanced.




i believe the point has been lost. sadly.
Because rapescallion is not balanced(still easier to say balance, saying imbalance without the context is to odd, and it is imbalanced, but to far imbalance) in any way. This thread was more directed at the people who bitch about vagabond and spider, which have counters.
rapescallion, is countered by everything.

The point is not lost, the point is a class has strengths and weekeneses that balance out with other races via counters.

[Assassin]

Very good video but the problem therein lies that WCS mod isn't close to being balanced...and doesn't deviate by the normal 10-15% "jedi curve" it arks...hard. Much harder. It's like compariing WoW to Eve Online's learning curve...once the training wheels are off (and in css we all know there aren't ne) the curve is to steep and people stop wanting to play.

[Erdenay]

Deathfire.... playing vaga... if i was new and saw him playing vaga i would think that race sucks.... so imo kdr is not a good judge. Kdr is better at judging the individual player

Races kdr evens out somewhat, although that's one of the reasons I've mentioned it's not that good of a mark. If we'd take human for example - it's kdr is underrated due to all bad people, but it's still one of the better ones. Thus, while it's not perfect, it does show a thing or two.


Erdenay: Can I just ask you to read: what I said at the start carefully, your response, then your first sentence of your next response. Hint: I never said anything about the USEFULNESS of any of those. As for undead ulti... I didn't realize 70% wasn't that often.

KDR, by itself, doesn't mean anything. It is too easily padded, too easily abused, doesn't show anything but last hits and deaths. Doesn't show if you got respawned 15 times in wards. Doesn't show that you killed 30 AFKs a round for 30 rounds. It doesn't show that Player A can get 100 kills, 0 deaths over a night because he plays with noobs. What I should have said was: KDR without any reference shows jack.

"The reason for that is that rapscalion's crits just above once out of 5 while flame pred's hits more than once in 3 hits - that's a huge difference when it comes to knifing. Furthermore, if rapscalion does not get a backstab or a crit, it's more likely dead than not while flame pred has much better chances to still kill the person or at least retreat and try again. So, by the looks of it, we agree to disagree here."

It's actually higher than 1 in 5. It's close to... 22 in 100... or 1 in 4.5454. Stats and low numbers and all that. But, as I asked Stars, how is FP more likely to do either of those in the case of no proccing? Are we citing the 40 extra HP or is it something else? If it's the other 40 HP, I counter: Raps is supposed to have the surprise, so will be shot at less on the approach.

My bad for misreading, but what I was trying to point out that raps is not really that well defined by its ultimate - as I've mentioned, I barely ever use it when I play as normally it goes better without it.

It doesn't mean everything, but it does represent a few things. Yes, it's nowhere near perfect and I've seen it abused plenty of times, but it is slightly different for races than for people - all of these races have been played for a long, long, long time and experienced everything. Remember that kdr is counted from all the deaths and kills that have been taken, so while they're nowhere near perfect, they have some truth in them... Furthermore, notice the gap of the kdr between rapscalion and the next "worst" race.

Just barely. Yes, I realize that - I've finished a few calc classes and I'm an economics major, so that should already tell you that I know a thing or two, but now you're just trying to point out anything rather than addressing the actual point. The combination of skills for FP is just much better than raps - and they're actually both surprise races... If you do a heads on approach with FP and not try to be sneaky and make a surprise, you're playing it wrong. Both these races are ambush races - it's just that one of them is better at it and has much better chances of doing well with... And that's not raps.


Edit, as a late aside, for those arguing to increase the power of Raps, how much would you feel changing his invis to true invis, same levels as FP, would increase his power? Would it be enough? Just curious.

I'm actually not arguing for anything (maybe ulti fix would be nice, but that's all) - I'm just trying to point out that it's underpowered, unbalanced and it fits our servers quite well :P


brilliant thread is made about balance, or more precisely, imbalance, and its value in gaming.

people make 6 pages of replies about a race being imbalanced.

i believe the point has been lost. sadly.

No, it was not lost. The only reason why I started to chim in is because some people said rapscalion wasn't weaker than other races. I don't mind that race and I am not arguing for any changes. Besides, to quite you yourself: "This is internet, what else did you expect?"

[Blackmage]

A flem pred can escape after not procing anything with its speed(the same), health, and invisibility (your argument that the visibility is different for different players is null here, some invis> opaque)

I will grant you this, forgot about raps flickering not being 100%


A flame pred has 40% chance to drop their weapon and a 35% chance to set them on fire. Both will keep the flame pred alive if the guy they are trying to knife has not yet droped, giving the flame pred the ability to either run or get another go at it. If the flame pred fails he blows up hugging the guy he was trying to kill.

Rapscallion has 22% chance to crit, if he fails to crit he is dead, running away is difficult, very difficult, they can see you and they dont have anything blocking their vision, slowing them down, or preventing them from shooting like a flame pred would. Their ultimate is useless as all it does is bring attention to their self, makes too much noise and is visible through walls.

The problem with the rest of your post is, you have the dice all falling for the FP and against the Raps. Yes, if he fails his skills, and the FP doesn't fail his, FP will be better.

Another problem is, Raps skill has one condition for working upon hitting. Does the enemy have <= 165/195 health upon trigger. If so, the enemy is dead. For flame pred, fire: is their sight impaired enough, will they spray and win, do you have the lace so they can't escape, or worse, will they just be able to normally outspeed you even on fire (Santa, enough speed on bunny hopping), if they have low enough health, this will kill them, however. For weapon drop: does their secondary gun have enough ammo, do they have auto pick-up, again, can they escape, do they even HAVE a gun, if they get knocked to a knife, do YOU have enough HP, this will never lead directly to death.

I do agree with their ultimate being useless for escaping.


My bad for misreading, but what I was trying to point out that raps is not really that well defined by its ultimate - as I've mentioned, I barely ever use it when I play as normally it goes better without it.

It doesn't mean everything, but it does represent a few things. Yes, it's nowhere near perfect and I've seen it abused plenty of times, but it is slightly different for races than for people - all of these races have been played for a long, long, long time and experienced everything. Remember that kdr is counted from all the deaths and kills that have been taken, so while they're nowhere near perfect, they have some truth in them... Furthermore, notice the gap of the kdr between rapscalion and the next "worst" race.

Just barely. Yes, I realize that - I've finished a few calc classes and I'm an economics major, so that should already tell you that I know a thing or two, but now you're just trying to point out anything rather than addressing the actual point. The combination of skills for FP is just much better than raps - and they're actually both surprise races... If you do a heads on approach with FP and not try to be sneaky and make a surprise, you're playing it wrong. Both these races are ambush races - it's just that one of them is better at it and has much better chances of doing well with... And that's not raps.

Sorry, I too missed that. I interpreted what you were saying was that it was weak, not that it didn't define it. I also don't see what you not using the ultimate has to do with it not being defined. A few people have chosen not to use Vagabond's ulti in the past, doesn't mean the race isn't (largely) defined by the ultimate.

KDR represents a few things, I agree. Kills, deaths and the ratio of them. It shows how many kills players have gotten, and how many times players have died on those races. It also, as you rightly mentioned, have been played for a long, long time, with varied skills, glitches and races on server. Also, KDR does not determine good and bad races, unless you are only worried about, again, kills and deaths. If this is the case, then I'll concede the point.

Making me go look at the stats of the various races brings some interesting things to light. Only 9 races have been "played more" than Raps. As such, I assume this means it's counting time the race is in the server, and not each instance totaled. Either that, or for being so weak and useless, it bloody well liked. Also, the second lowest KDR, Magician, is a race that gets a large number of kills AFTER it has first died once, something that is not shown with KDR. The next, Hell Hunter, actually has less total kills than Raps, and has been released for 6 months longer than Raps. Heck, Archmage has 19,000 less kills than Raps, and he had more than 7 months head start. Raps actually has more kills than 7 races that were released prior to it. Granted, 5 of those races have less kills than some players do total. Also, of the 23 races with less playtime than Raps, 2 have died more times, which again, leads to to conclude "massed playtime" rather than "total playtime". There are also some oddities, including, random races killing with into_the_void, and various other skills they don't actually have. And then we have Free (http://www.ibisgaming.com/wcs_stats/player.php?id=17385)

On the numbers topic, I can say the same for you. Your point with the numbers seemed to be "changing the way we look at the numbers (1 time in 10 vs 1 in 3 and 1 in 5) makes the gap look larger". I probably would have been better off saying something like "2 in (very slightly more than) 9 vs 3 in 9" so they'd be on the same scale. Another point is, like I said, 1 time in 10 proccing really shouldn't be considered that much better, and if you think otherwise, we're just going to disagree, so I really had nothing to say. As for education, I can go on for days about that, but I digress. I figured you had some background.

As for which has a better chance, one of these has a better chance of not being seen before the ambush, and therefore doing a safer attack run, and it isn't the FP. I assume we can play the hypothetical situation game for some time, if you we want to continue play "which is better".


brilliant thread is made about balance, or more precisely, imbalance, and its value in gaming.






people make 6 pages of replies about a race being imbalanced.




i believe the point has been lost. sadly.

The correct statement is "people make 6 pages of replies about races being IMPROPERLY (im)balanced." which is exactly the point, I believe.

[Erdenay]

Sorry, I too missed that. I interpreted what you were saying was that it was weak, not that it didn't define it. I also don't see what you not using the ultimate has to do with it not being defined. A few people have chosen not to use Vagabond's ulti in the past, doesn't mean the race isn't (largely) defined by the ultimate.

I did meant earlier in the thread that it's weak, but I also meant that, although after re-reading, I can easily see how it was missed. If you'll notice, most of the best people as raps don't use it much (if any) - just because that it's not that useful. Ask masskid. And yes, but it is different when you choose not to use ulti because you don't know how to work it well enough versus not using because it's not that useful and that your race works better without most of the time.


KDR represents a few things, I agree. Kills, deaths and the ratio of them. It shows how many kills players have gotten, and how many times players have died on those races. It also, as you rightly mentioned, have been played for a long, long time, with varied skills, glitches and races on server. Also, KDR does not determine good and bad races, unless you are only worried about, again, kills and deaths. If this is the case, then I'll concede the point.

Agreed, nothing to argue here.


Making me go look at the stats of the various races brings some interesting things to light. Only 9 races have been "played more" than Raps. As such, I assume this means it's counting time the race is in the server, and not each instance totaled. Either that, or for being so weak and useless, it bloody well liked. Also, the second lowest KDR, Magician, is a race that gets a large number of kills AFTER it has first died once, something that is not shown with KDR. The next, Hell Hunter, actually has less total kills than Raps, and has been released for 6 months longer than Raps. Heck, Archmage has 19,000 less kills than Raps, and he had more than 7 months head start. Raps actually has more kills than 7 races that were released prior to it. Granted, 5 of those races have less kills than some players do total. Also, of the 23 races with less playtime than Raps, 2 have died more times, which again, leads to to conclude "massed playtime" rather than "total playtime". There are also some oddities, including, random races killing with into_the_void, and various other skills they don't actually have. And then we have Free (http://www.ibisgaming.com/wcs_stats/player.php?id=17385)

Well, notice that raps has 40 levels and it takes a while to max it... So that is the main reason for that.

How's magician kdr does not reflect that? It still goes into the kdr count... There's no separate bird category.

Yes and all of those races are fairly fast to level, unpopular and have been played less time (even though both races are actually pretty good).

As for that ultimate, I believe that if you kill a race that is in the black hole but is alive (when your teammates are sucked into it, but don't die), you get that kill as killed by into the void.

1 death? Ugh.. Okay? I'm assuming that zero was testing something there.


On the numbers topic, I can say the same for you. Your point with the numbers seemed to be "changing the way we look at the numbers (1 time in 10 vs 1 in 3 and 1 in 5) makes the gap look larger". I probably would have been better off saying something like "2 in (very slightly more than) 9 vs 3 in 9" so they'd be on the same scale. Another point is, like I said, 1 time in 10 proccing really shouldn't be considered that much better, and if you think otherwise, we're just going to disagree, so I really had nothing to say. As for education, I can go on for days about that, but I digress. I figured you had some background.

Fair enough - I didn't intentionally change the numbers, but I can see how they do make it look better for my argument than it actually is (even if it's not that big). As far as the actual odds go - flame pred has other skills that complement the fire while raps does not, so flame pred has much better statistic chances to use one of his skills on the enemy, although since we were discussing only 1 skill against the other, I do have to concede that.


As for which has a better chance, one of these has a better chance of not being seen before the ambush, and therefore doing a safer attack run, and it isn't the FP. I assume we can play the hypothetical situation game for some time, if you we want to continue play "which is better".

Yes, this is situational and subjective, but I base it on a lot of previous experience and stats, although as you've said yourself, we could go on about this for days due to the fact that what we are currently discussing is not actually *factual*.

[Blackmage]

Can't argue with people not using the ultimate because they feel it isn't useful.

"And yes, but it is different when you choose not to use ulti because you don't know how to work it well enough versus not using because it's not that useful and that your race works better without most of the time."

Actually, I'd argue those are the same thing in this case. If you don't know, or care, or want to, or are in a position to use it in it's most powerful, it will work better if you don't use it.



Before going into the psychostats things, looking at the things again, I realize, they didn't start counting till 2011-05-13, only a month and a half before Raps, so doesn't show as much as I thought.

"How's magician kdr does not reflect that? It still goes into the kdr count... There's no separate bird category."

I'm not sure what I was trying for that. I probably had some idea when I wrote it, but can't think of it right now. Probably has something to do with the ability for an incredible power increase after death.

"Yes and all of those races are fairly fast to level, unpopular and have been played less time (even though both races are actually pretty good)."

Well, other than genocide on the fast to level. Faster, yes. Unpopular, but still more popular than raps. Then we run into the problem I mentioned at the start of this section.

"As for that ultimate, I believe that if you kill a race that is in the black hole but is alive (when your teammates are sucked into it, but don't die), you get that kill as killed by into the void."

Ok, the rest of these? Bunches of 0s removed.

suicidebomber 23 1,269
into_the_void 4 475
hegrenade 1 293

Or better yet, from FP's list:

hegrenade 7 324
into_the_void 4 960
ak47 2 22,540
glock 1 4,305
raiden_thundrbolt 1 2,457
athena_relm 1 2,106
m4a1 1 31,731
scout 1 3,477

Methinks there may be something wrong here. Anyone who knows Psychostats able to clear up this?

And then we have free, which has 1 death. But if you look on the human page, he's killed it twice. Also related: Free's player Name? Rapscallion. He has been on 4 times, 2 games, 2 rounds, 1 map. He's been on for 3 seconds, but the time between the first seen and last seen was 25 seconds. I have no idea what's going on here :)

[StarsMine]

I belive its if you change race before death, all your kills go to the race you picked... Or am I wrong.

[Blackmage]

If that's true, I question what people were doing. 23 kills via suicide bomber, and none with guns? Also, do you know how you get the "world" kills?

[HypeRNT]

If that's true, I question what people were doing. 23 kills via suicide bomber, and none with guns? Also, do you know how you get the "world" kills?

Does /killing yourself with void at enemies spwn =activating its ult count as kills? I guess you can just suicide with it, maybe it was done by people who thought that ult was better then it actually is and tried suiciding all the time while using it for the first time or something.

[Blackmage]

That might explain the into_the_void (such as switching, then killing self to get the race) but suicidebomber is the undead/flame pred ulti. Short of changing race AND team, that wouldn't work at spawn. Granted that WOULD work.

[Sin]

Question... seeing the current trend of the bunnyhopping races getting fucked in the ass, will Jack be getting slowed down, as well?

I remember Succubus being so fucking fun to play when I unlocked her because of her jump speed, then same with Spiderman (never used the gay websling), I'm just worried that Jack's bunnyhop speed will be cut in half soon... and then I will have nothing fun to play. :(

Any confirmation on this?

[Erdenay]

Can't argue with people not using the ultimate because they feel it isn't useful.

Actually, I'd argue those are the same thing in this case. If you don't know, or care, or want to, or are in a position to use it in it's most powerful, it will work better if you don't use it.

I do use it every now and then, especially when I know I have the element of surprise or when people won't have laces, but as soon as those two are lost, it's much easier to kill without ulti.


Before going into the psychostats things, looking at the things again, I realize, they didn't start counting till 2011-05-13, only a month and a half before Raps, so doesn't show as much as I thought.


I'm not sure what I was trying for that. I probably had some idea when I wrote it, but can't think of it right now. Probably has something to do with the ability for an incredible power increase after death.

Yeah. We've all had our share of misreadings in the past :)


Well, other than genocide on the fast to level. Faster, yes. Unpopular, but still more popular than raps. Then we run into the problem I mentioned at the start of this section.

No argument here (although I would say that races like genocide, die xonvert and few others are really underplayed and underrated as they're much stronger than most people think (especially Xonvert). And yes, the races that is the most difficult to play and is possibly the weakest won't have that many fans.


Ok, the rest of these? Bunches of 0s removed.

suicidebomber 23 1,269
into_the_void 4 475
hegrenade 1 293

Or better yet, from FP's list:

hegrenade 7 324
into_the_void 4 960
ak47 2 22,540
glock 1 4,305
raiden_thundrbolt 1 2,457
athena_relm 1 2,106
m4a1 1 31,731
scout 1 3,477

Methinks there may be something wrong here. Anyone who knows Psychostats able to clear up this?

And then we have free, which has 1 death. But if you look on the human page, he's killed it twice. Also related: Free's player Name? Rapscallion. He has been on 4 times, 2 games, 2 rounds, 1 map. He's been on for 3 seconds, but the time between the first seen and last seen was 25 seconds. I have no idea what's going on here :)

I honestly can't explain these any better than the people who tried that before me.


Question... seeing the current trend of the bunnyhopping races getting fucked in the ass, will Jack be getting slowed down, as well?

I remember Succubus being so fucking fun to play when I unlocked her because of her jump speed, then same with Spiderman (never used the gay websling), I'm just worried that Jack's bunnyhop speed will be cut in half soon... and then I will have nothing fun to play. :(

Any confirmation on this?

As far as I've heard, no... But there's only one person with definite answer.

[HypeRNT]

Question... seeing the current trend of the bunnyhopping races getting fucked in the ass, will Jack be getting slowed down, as well?

I remember Succubus being so fucking fun to play when I unlocked her because of her jump speed, then same with Spiderman (never used the gay websling), I'm just worried that Jack's bunnyhop speed will be cut in half soon... and then I will have nothing fun to play. :(

Any confirmation on this?

It should get nerfd a little bit, i mean the way it is now you are way to fast covering WAY to much distance with just bunny hopping aswell as it would not be fair to other bunny hopping races, i mean why is jack getting special treatment? Its already strong, if othe races got nerfd for the same skill, so should jack. Its getting to the point were its a little bit out of control like meatspin posted earlier about people going SPWN to SPWN with in seconds into the round which should never really be possible because it takes away from the balance of things, and the way the maps were developed. I really wish that ALL the ults had atleast 5-10 second cooldown right of the bat at the start of the round just to prevent things from happening like insta planting on dolls from T side while ct's are still at spwn, or planting the bomb at a on aztec b4 ct's get to double doors, or holding choke points with flying races like santa were you fly out the window right behind ct spwn... Small things like that can make a big impact on the game, and there really is no reason to have no cooldown for your ULTIMATE skill just for a few seconds anyways, anyone else see a drawback to having a short cd on ults at the start of the round? cuz i dont.

[brett friggin favre]

jack was nerfed after initial release (it was wayyyy too fast, could get across d2 n 2-3 hops, faster than spidey with web shooter), there was an error in the coding somewhere and zero fixed it to try to capture the exact same movement speed as the old server. that caused the spidey slow and also slowed jack from what it was when it was first implemented in the new server. won't get nerfed again. i think the issue had to do with how their base speed (increased by skills in jack and spidey) was applied to the bhop skills, and since succy doesn't have any speed increase, it wasn't affected but i could be wrong.

[Sin]

Succubus used to be fast as shit. That's what I used to use. I just noticed a trend with the bhopping races getting spanked in speed, I just don't want it to happen to Jack, too. Honestly, those races are the only reason I play WCS. lol BHopping + shooting everyone is just too fun!

Plus, the way I see it, if the Faga's and Santa can move quickly in the air, there should be a race or two that can match them in speed on the ground, but not runspeed... that's just boring.

[brett friggin favre]

Succubus used to be fast as shit. That's what I used to use. I just noticed a trend with the bhopping races getting spanked in speed, I just don't want it to happen to Jack, too. Honestly, those races are the only reason I play WCS. lol BHopping + shooting everyone is just too fun!

Plus, the way I see it, if the Faga's and Santa can move quickly in the air, there should be a race or two that can match them in speed on the ground, but not runspeed... that's just boring.

i don't think there will be any more speed nerfs, as my understanding is this is how it was on the old server. however if succy was affected by the nerf that happened, i think that should be looked into. there was a lot of talk before about spidey and jack being tooooo fast, but nobody ever complained about succy. as i said i think the fix was intended to correct values for those long jump skills that are affected by run speed enhancing skills, so if it also hit succy then that doesn't seem right.

[Erdenay]

i don't think there will be any more speed nerfs, as my understanding is this is how it was on the old server. however if succy was affected by the nerf that happened, i think that should be looked into. there was a lot of talk before about spidey and jack being tooooo fast, but nobody ever complained about succy. as i said i think the fix was intended to correct values for those long jump skills that are affected by run speed enhancing skills, so if it also hit succy then that doesn't seem right.

I've played a little with it and it seemed like it was completely destroyed... I'm all up for looking into this if that was not intended as it pretty much killed the race.

[Sin]

Succubus got hit a long time ago. Not recently.

[ZERO]

I belive its if you change race before death, all your kills go to the race you picked... Or am I wrong.

No the way the program works is when ever normal player stats are written the server also adds a long where it replaces the names of the players with their races and the steam id with the tracking one used for the stats collection. :wtg:

---------- Post added at 12:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:31 AM ----------

Also you can access more stats here: http://www.ownageclan.com/

All war3 servers broadcast race stats to that site in real time. You can select our server to see only the data for it. You can even view data for just the scrim server.

---------- Post added at 12:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:33 AM ----------

Also talk about kills some of our races have more kills than the base races (indicated with a *) on all the other servers combined.

[Blackmage]

Given it only stores for 10 days, it doesn't actually help with the scrim :P Interesting watching it however :) And does give some additional stats, such as win/loss.

Yeah, Human is QUITE popular, with over 50k more wins+losses than our second place race. Supposing I'm reading it right, they've got 1/8th of our total presence in the server.

r_sql = strider, heh.

[acolyte_to_jippity]

Given it only stores for 10 days, it doesn't actually help with the scrim :P Interesting watching it however :) And does give some additional stats, such as win/loss.

Yeah, Human is QUITE popular, with over 50k more wins+losses than our second place race. Supposing I'm reading it right, they've got 1/8th of our total presence in the server.

r_sql = strider, heh.

our vagabond is in 14th place for overall kills...

[Blackmage]

Our server's Vagabond is listed as having "18592 16345" Kills/Deaths The main Vagabond is listed as having "24407 17932". So 6k more kills, 1.5k more deaths on the main screen. The bigger problem is wins/losses. Ours: "77678 74388" Mains:"13323 12291" 60k LESS wins and 60k LESS losses on the main.

This leads me to believe that the server stats are actually probably closer to a month, due to no Scrim stats. Also: that's probably not just our vaga :)

Also given the following, I'm not checking what else has vaga.

Loaded in 2,162.812 seconds (36 minutes for those who care)

[ZERO]

Yes there is another vag servers use that has the name id name. The stats on that site does not separate the data for the two despite ours being different.

[LogaN]

Alot of u say the server, vagabond and vagalion are balanced and that there are counters but...

Awp and auto are restricted, both vagas are restricted to 1.

I used to play in a server with 300+ races a none of them were restricted to 1 and only a few were restricted to 2/3 because a mass number of them would make an huge diference(races with an ultimate like Crypt Lord). Alot of items are restricted to many races, in that server you could buy any item none was restricted.
And you could buy awp and auto! I played there for 1/2 years and i can count with my fingers how many time i bought a lace, here if you dont buy it u are fucked!

I had 3500+ levels in there, to bad it ended shortly after the first huge source update :(
The server was hosted by Koshy and TeacherCreature they are well known in the wcs community some of you mitght heard/know them.

A little comparison(If you dont play LoL you might dont undestand this comparison :P):
Vagabond/Vagalion = Ezreal without cooldown on his E/Shaco wihtout cooldown on his Q = OP

[brett friggin favre]

you're new here. you get a free lesson. we don't care about what other servers do. this is ibis.

and you're not fucked without a lace. shadow hunters and others are perfect defenses against vagas. also, you can play a class like dragonfly, jack, magician, archmage, and you don't need to spend money on anything else so a lace is no problem to buy.

we also like not having 300+ races so the race selection and playstyle is a lot more about strategy. you get to know each of the races better, and know how to counter certain players on certain races. it adds an extra dimension that we like.

[LogaN]

you're new here. you get a free lesson. we don't care about what other servers do. this is ibis.

and you're not fucked without a lace. shadow hunters and others are perfect defenses against vagas. also, you can play a class like dragonfly, jack, magician, archmage, and you don't need to spend money on anything else so a lace is no problem to buy.

we also like not having 300+ races so the race selection and playstyle is a lot more about strategy. you get to know each of the races better, and know how to counter certain players on certain races. it adds an extra dimension that we like.

Free lesson for u too, just because its my first post doesnt mean im new to the server.
And whats the point of counter one race just to help the team if u dont have fun or dont get anything by doing it? Here u cant go past the skill level cap so if u play a maxed race u cant get more levels and i hate playing maxed races. I rather play a race i like and isnt maxed than playing one just to win rounds.

[brett friggin favre]

Free lesson for u too, just because its my first post doesnt mean im new to the server.
And whats the point of counter one race just to help the team if u dont have fun or dont get anything by doing it? Here u cant go past the skill level cap so if u play a maxed race u cant get more levels and i hate playing maxed races. I rather play a race i like and isnt maxed than playing one just to win rounds.

alright everyone, this guy doesn't have fun playing maxed races, let's change the server to make it like every other wcs server out there!

also, we have no way of knowing whether or not you're new to the server because you didn't put your steamid into your info, and it seems you used a name unrelated to any one you've used on the server. so we'll assume you're new and have no idea what you're talking about.

[SCRIBBLE]

It's a competitive server.

[LogaN]

Free lesson for u too, just because its my first post doesnt mean im new to the server.
And whats the point of counter one race just to help the team if u dont have fun or dont get anything by doing it? Here u cant go past the skill level cap so if u play a maxed race u cant get more levels and i hate playing maxed races. I rather play a race i like and isnt maxed than playing one just to win rounds.

Others? I was talking about one of the best if not the best wcs server ever!
And if they r so balanced why r they retricted? lol

[SCRIBBLE]

go away, you're arguing opinion.

[LogaN]

go away, you're arguing opinion.

That's all u have to say? really? U just made my point, they r OP.

[SCRIBBLE]

That's all u have to say? really? U just made my point, they r OP.

The opinion of someone who believes an extremely successful server should change to meet the desires of a few.

[LogaN]

The opinion of someone who believes an extremely successful server should change to meet the desires of a few.

LOL.

A server with only 21 slots that isnt always full cant be described as "extremely successful". Successful maybe.
I love wcs and i like to play here so i just want the server to get better and bigger(if possible).

[brett friggin favre]

LOL.

A server with only 21 slots that isnt always full cant be described as "extremely successful". Successful maybe.
I love wcs and i like to play here so i just want the server to get better and bigger(if possible).

i can tell you don't like our server. i can tell you don't like people who matter around here. i can tell you're an idiot.

you won't be here long.

also before GO and school started up, it was damn near impossible to join the server during most of the day.

[SCRIBBLE]

first opinion, second semantics. what's next, ad hominem, selective observation or perhaps innumeracy?

i'd say ad hominem seeing as you're close to the edge already.

your move.

[LogaN]

i can tell you don't like our server. i can tell you don't like people who matter around here. i can tell you're an idiot.


Childish and imature as i tought.

U mad kid? truth hurst i know.

[brett friggin favre]

Childish and imature as i tought.

U mad kid? truth hurst i know.

where do you see anger in any of that? i've been around since before the relaunch of the wcs server, i've seen the goals in mind, i've seen the success. you quite clearly haven't, and come in here like you're gonna take over the joint and boss us around.

and nice call scribs! nailed it!

[LogaN]

where do you see anger in any of that?


U called me liar and idiot = Childish and immature.


and come in here like you're gonna take over the joint and boss us around.

huh?
U are the one acting like that just because u are here since "the relaunch of the wcs server".
I just pointed a few flaws the server has.. if those races arent op and can be countered easily why r they retricted? lol
And i dont even understand why awp and auto r restriced those r the ones that can be easily countered...

[brett friggin favre]

U called me liar and idiot = Childish and immature.



huh?
U are the one acting like that just because u are here since "the relaunch of the wcs server".
I just pointed a few flaws the server has.. if those races arent op and can be countered easily why r they retricted? lol
And i dont even understand why awp and auto r restriced those r the ones that can be easily countered...

never called you a liar, and that proves you're an idiot. and they're restricted so we don't have 50% of the people on the server zipping around not killing each other. ever seen a vaga on vaga fight? takes FOR FUCKING EVER. especially if they have laces.

imagine 6 people stuck in the same place, unable to move, from a chain of laces.

[LogaN]

never called you a liar

I said that i like to play in this server and u said this:


i can tell you don't like our server.

To me that's the same thing as calling someone liar. And u called me idiot again u r so funny lol.


and they're restricted so we don't have 50% of the people on the server zipping around not killing each other. ever seen a vaga on vaga fight? takes FOR FUCKING EVER. especially if they have laces

Then his ultimate should be reworked or the code that blocks their ultimate should be removed from lace's code. Restricting shouldnt be an option.

[Erdenay]

huh?
U are the one acting like that just because u are here since "the relaunch of the wcs server".
I just pointed a few flaws the server has.. if those races arent op and can be countered easily why r they retricted? lol
And i dont even understand why awp and auto r restriced those r the ones that can be easily countered...

I believe what Brett is trying to say is that server is balanced as it is right now. They are restricted to BALANCE the server. Furthermore, the strongest 2 races in the server, Human and Jack, are not restricted (and neither is nebula). The point of balance (or as close as is possible to get to it without hurting the variety) is to make any races counterable and killable. Both vaga (especially Lion) are really easy to counter in all but few maps and same goes for all the other races. AWP is restricted because it's the most powerful item in the game and it would make it way to imbalanced and not fun. Scout needs much more skill than awp, thus it's here and AWP is not. IBIS wcs server is by far the most balanced one from all the ones I've seen so far and barring few minor balance things that I'd do (fix rap's ultimate;take away banish from human's bash;etc).

And what's funny that if you're complaining about these imbalances now... Just wait for the shitstorm when eve comes out.


Then his ultimate should be reworked or the code that blocks their ultimate should be removed from lace's code. Restricting shouldnt be an option.

This clearly shows how little you've played... Laces are what makes vagas (and a lot of other races) not OP. We want WCS to be a strategic game where you have to at least think about what you're doing, how you're doing and how you're going to play versus just playing CoD and going berserk with no strategy. And why would restriction NOT be an option? Enlighten us? Please?

[brett friggin favre]

im done here. can't fix stupid. :headache:

[What]

Why is it always the noobies who are shocked and scared by what they don't understand? DEAR GOD SOMETHINGS DIFFERENT! IT MUST BE CHANGED IMMEDIATLY!

[acolyte_to_jippity]

Free lesson for u too, just because its my first post doesnt mean im new to the server.
And whats the point of counter one race just to help the team if u dont have fun or dont get anything by doing it? Here u cant go past the skill level cap so if u play a maxed race u cant get more levels and i hate playing maxed races. I rather play a race i like and isnt maxed than playing one just to win rounds.

1) post your info so we can tell if you're actually new to the server or not. because as it is, you're just some whining prick coming in off the street telling us how we should run our server. if you want respect, you need to show us why you deserve some.
2) while I do think races should be able to over-level, that is A: not possible with war3 as it's hard-coded into the mod, and B: how it is. it's been brought up in the past, and the decision was to keep it as is. if you don't like playing maxxed races, then play a different race. if you've maxxed them all, don't know what to tell you mate. good job, you've won the game.


LOL.

A server with only 21 slots that isnt always full cant be described as "extremely successful". Successful maybe.
I love wcs and i like to play here so i just want the server to get better and bigger(if possible).

you love wcs, fine. i can easily tell that. but you sure as hell don't love playing here. if you did, you might have had a bit more respect when you came in here telling us exactly how we should run the server. we're returning it to be exactly the same (minus one or two slight differences) to the old server we had before the OB update.



Then his ultimate should be reworked or the code that block their ultimate should be removed from lace's code. Restricting shouldnt be an option.

qq.

vaga and vagalion are restricted for good reasons. 1) they are extremely powerful, and we do tend to try keeping the environment somewhat new-player-friendly. 2) they were restricted on the old server. end of discussion.

[LogaN]

Why is it always the noobies who are shocked and scared by what they don't understand? DEAR GOD SOMETHINGS DIFFERENT! IT MUST BE CHANGED IMMEDIATLY!

Noobies? my kdr is higher than alot of ppl from top10 and im not there because i dont have the game play hours that they do.
And human is only strong because bash its diferent than it was before and mess up ur aim.


im done here. can't fix stupid. :headache:

Kid im not ur mother so u can stop calling me idiot or stupid. I didnt call u anything.

[brett friggin favre]

Noobies? my kdr is higher than alot of ppl from top10 and im not there because i dont have the game play hours that they do.
And human is only strong because bash its diferent than it was before and mess up ur aim.



Kid im not ur mother so u can stop calling me idiot or stupid. I didnt call u anything.

sorry you called me childish and immature...........

retard.

and before you freak out about me calling you a retard, it's called "irony." you'll learn about it in 7th grade.

[Chikun]

Ahhh a new discussion of a new opinion.

Oh wait, it's just someone complaining how IBIS isn't like some other server. Where's your argument or your reasoning why limitations should be removed?

[Erdenay]

Ahhh a new discussion of a new opinion.

Oh wait, it's just someone complaining how IBIS isn't like some other server. Where's your argument or your reasoning why limitations should be removed?

From what I've seen, he can't really base his opinion, so he just ignores the normal comments and then answers the trolls. Not impressed.

[Rapedollar$]

if you dont like it.

get fucking lost...

i thought this would be amusing but its too stupid to be amusing...
what the fuck!

[LogaN]

1) post your info so we can tell if you're actually new to the server or not.


Sent u a pm with my psychostats page.



(...)telling us how we should run our server.(...)


Where did i say how u should run the server? I just said that if the server is balanced as u say why r awp, auto and some races retricted to 0/1?



2) while I do think races should be able to over-level, that is A: not possible with war3 as it's hard-coded into the mod, and B: how it is. it's been brought up in the past, and the decision was to keep it as is. if you don't like playing maxxed races, then play a different race. if you've maxxed them all, don't know what to tell you mate. good job, you've won the game.


Before the huge update u could go past the max skill level in the server i played there was a guy named n0life and he only played with undead scourge he was level120+ with it LOL. Thats why i mentioned it.

And i dont like to play with maxed races just to win rounds when i dont have fun playing with them and i have others that i like and arent maxed, its a waste of time.

If u dont want to change the max level cap u could add a menu where u could save xp/levels so u can play those maxed races to help ur team and then use it on the other races...

U could also add xp bonus to knife kills because knife races r harder to get kills when u r low level. Adding bonus to head shots would be also nice so ppl would try to aim at the head instead just "spray and prey" with p90 xD




vaga and vagalion are restricted for good reasons. 1) they are extremely powerful, and we do tend to try keeping the environment somewhat new-player-friendly. 2) they were restricted on the old server. end of discussion.

Like i said i dont think that retricting shoould be an option, more ppl should be able to enjoy them.
In the server i played there was 3 races one with highspeed/low grav scout/knife 80% invisible or more and was rectricted to 2/3 another one 100% invible with just a scout and other 100% with a USP but they werent OP because they dint have everything like vagabond and vagalion do.
They have flickering, high speed, low grav, invisibility, skill that increases dmg and finaly the thing that makes them OP, their ulti wich is spammable. They would still be strong with half the things they have!

Btw they awp and auto r retricted?...

---------- Post added at 12:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:47 AM ----------


From what I've seen, he can't really base his opinion, so he just ignores the normal comments and then answers the trolls. Not impressed.

U r so smart, u know this forum doesnt tell u when u press "post" that someone already made a post while u were writing ur post?... post, post, post why so many -.-

[Erdenay]

U r so smart, u know this forum doesnt tell u when u press "post" that someone already made a post while u were writing ur post?... post, post, post why so many -.-

Yet you still fail to answer to any of my points... Or some valid points raised by others.

[What]

Where did i say how u should run the server? I just said that if the server is balanced as u say why r awp, auto and some races retricted to 0/1?

I'm gonna go out on a limb here, now follow me on this, maybe, just maybe what in fact ensures balance within the server are some of these restrictions, especially those preventing certain races from buying certain items, etc.

Really not that hard to figure out there champ.

[LogaN]

Yet you still fail to answer to any of my points... Or some valid points raised by others.

Wich points? u r the ones failing at explaining why awp/auto are retricted and why do u say that both vagas arent op when they are retricted to one.
I already explained some of my points and some of my sugestions to acolyte_to_jippity wich was the only one that was nice and respectful.

[brett friggin favre]

Wich points? u r the ones failing at explaining why awp/auto are retricted and why do u say that both vagas arent op when they are retricted to one.
I already explained some of my points and some of my sugestions to acolyte_to_jippity wich was the only one that was nice and respectful.

i was actually being pretty courteous in my first post.

i explained to you why we didn't have a crapton of races. i have also explained why some are restricted. you still sit over there slinging insults my way from behind some mask of anonymity which really doesn't help your case at all.

to directly address awp/auto:
awp is restricted because 1) it really doesn't fit into a wcs style of gameplay, at least not ours, and 2) it would throw off the balance with some of the racial skills we have here. some would need to be retooled, and there's no reason for it because of reason 1

auto is restricted because it's a goddamn scout on full auto. which is complete bs, encourages noobery, and really not a single person has complained about it, and the fact that you complain about it makes you sound even more like an idiot.

[LogaN]

oh i saw ur "points" i didnt read it before because i took a look at this and didnt read more:



This clearly shows how little you've played...


I have 152hours of game play in this server in just a few months if that isnt enough im sorry cs isnt my life.



They are restricted to BALANCE the server.


U shouldnt restrict to balance u should nerf/buff to balance.



Both vaga (especially Lion) are really easy to counter (...).


Again if they r easy to counter why r they retricted doesnt make sense.



AWP is restricted because it's the most powerful item in the game and it would make it way to imbalanced and not fun. Scout needs much more skill than awp, thus it's here and AWP is not.


LOL?!?! Since when Scout takes more skill? U can hit with a scout with no scope from miles away u can jump/run with it and hit someone easily, u cant do that with an awp.
Awp and auto are part of the game they shouldnt be retritcted...




We want WCS to be a strategic game where you have to at least think about what you're doing, how you're doing and how you're going to play versus just playing CoD and going berserk with no strategy.

So u want it to be a strategic game but u retrict awp and auto wich make part of the game and take part of the strategy... doesnt make sence. In tournaments those weapons arent retricted.


@brett friggin favre Didnt read ur post. U are in my "ignore list".

[HypeRNT]

first of all, ENOUGH

Only i can raise an argument on this freaking forum so fuck of and let me do my job.

VAGA IS OP WTF MAN, MUST CHANGE NOW
HUMAN IS OP!
ARCHMAGE IS OP! BECAUSE YOU GET A FREE GUN ONCE IN 25 rounds!

ok, now flame away but be warned, im drunk and may say something that doesn't make sense.

[LogaN]

first of all, ENOUGH

Only i can raise an argument on this freaking forum so fuck of and let me do my job.

VAGA IS OP WTF MAN, MUST CHANGE NOW
HUMAN IS OP!
ARCHMAGE IS OP! BECAUSE YOU GET A FREE GUN ONCE IN 25 rounds!

ok, now flame away but be warned, im drunk and may say something that doesn't make sense.

Dude, dont drink!
Smoke and fly! _\|/_

[brett friggin favre]

@brett friggin favre Didnt read ur post. U are in my "ignore list".

cool, and thanks for posting your hours, now i have your steamid and your aliases. i'll keep an eye out for you. you're on my shit list. good day :banghead:

[Steamer]

I just wasted a few minutes of my life reading this shit. Time not spent well for the entertainment I expected, yet failed to receive. Thanks....

[LogaN]

i'll keep an eye out for you. you're on my shit list. good day

Thanks but i dont want more fans, go stalk someone else.

[CYBER]

Cyber angry. Cyber smash puny logan? ...

No but seriously, i havent banned someone for being a complete tard since i banned , well, 'tard'... Kid, dnt advertise for other servers.
This is our server, we run the show, u dnt like it ? Then gtfo... I love how u were idolizing a 'better' server that didnt have brains enough to survive the valve update.

Every fucking player that commented here is a veteran wcs player for YEARS, and they know the server balance more than u or your adopted decendants ever would. So fck off, and have a nice day.

@ brett if u ban this fucker before i do, we're gonna have a serious talk. -.- ...

I cant fucking wait to see logan in game, and go all out mother-fucking-vaga on his sorry ass, THEN we'll see if he still supports his claim for unrestricting all races... Spasm, wolf and masskid can prove my point too.

[Bane of Soldiers]

In the end, it amounts to a lot of whining about a rather easy, perhaps one of the most easiest, race to counter.


How many posts do we have that sound like this?

[LogaN]

Cyber angey. Cyber smash puny logan? ...

No but seriously, i havent banned someone for being a complete tard since i banned , well, 'tard'... Kid, dnt advertise for other servers.
This is our server, we run the show, u dnt like it ? Then gtfo... I love how u were idolizing a 'betwter' server that didnt have brains enough to survive the valve update.

Every fucking player that commented here is a veteran wcs player for YEARS, and they know the server balance more than u or your adobted decendants ever wod. So fck off, and have a nice day.

@ brett if u ban this fucker before i do, we're gonna have a serious talk. -.- ...

I cant fucking wait to see logan in gam, and go all out mother-fucking-vaga on his sorry ass, THEN we'll see if he still supports his claim for unrestricting all races... Spasm, wolf and masskid can proce my point too.

Wow ur so mature... First im 26 im not a kid.
Advertise? how can i advertise something that doesnt exist?...

"server that didnt have brains enough to survive the valve update. "

How do u know that? they could have other things to do they have wives and kids. They cant always run a cs server if they dont have time to.

And TeacherCreature has a section on one of the wcs forums with all his work so he clearly has brains to do it if he wants to.

U r so badass u r going to own me with an op race really skilled!

And why r u going to ban me? I did nothing wrong...

Btw i also have played the mod for years i started to play it in 1.6 and i bought source when it came out and started to play wcs. And ill play in GO when i find a good server.

[Erdenay]

Wich points? u r the ones failing at explaining why awp/auto are retricted and why do u say that both vagas arent op when they are retricted to one.
I already explained some of my points and some of my sugestions to acolyte_to_jippity wich was the only one that was nice and respectful.

I'm happy that you actually read my post! Oh. Wait.



oh i saw ur "points" i didnt read it before because i took a look at this and didnt read more:

Either I misunderstand your english due to bad grammar... Or you're not all that bright. Re-read what you've just wrote here.


I have 152hours of game play in this server in just a few months if that isnt enough im sorry cs isnt my life.

It's sad that 152 hours don't really teach you anything then. It would be enough for most people, but looking at your comments, seems like you haven't learn while playing those hours.


U shouldnt restrict to balance u should nerf/buff to balance.

Restricting to balance is absolutely fine for these reasons:
1) It's nearly impossible to have absolute balance just by nerfing/buffing all races and that would take much more effort than required.
2) Some races, such as vagabonds, work better when they're restricted - a server full of stuck vagabonds or a server full of molecules would not be fun for anyone.
3) Most of the restricted races are higher level races in a way to reward and give a sense of accomplishment.


Again if they r easy to counter why r they retricted doesnt make sense.

Read the posts above this. Vaga wars can already be quite annoying and there's no reason to extend that. Furthermore, playing a restricted race (we can take one of the vagas for example, because they seem to be your biggest problem) again shows that you've earned it through effort and blood and it reflects it.


LOL?!?! Since when Scout takes more skill? U can hit with a scout with no scope from miles away u can jump/run with it and hit someone easily, u cant do that with an awp.
Awp and auto are part of the game they shouldnt be retritcted...

Umm... Yes you can? It's a 1 shot (for the most part) kill with AWP (especially with extra damage) whereas with a scout you need to be much more precise (headshot) or risk being hit and dying. You can no scope with awp just as well as with scout. If you have a problem with not seeing these guns... Well, go play in our pub server or somewhere else. AWP on a WCS is over-powered and it makes it much more balanced when you don't have one.


So u want it to be a strategic game but u retrict awp and auto wich make part of the game and take part of the strategy... doesnt make sence. In tournaments those weapons arent retricted.

Because tournaments are not playing in WarCraft mod. AWP takes away some of the skill from the game, which is why it is not in our WCS server. There's not that much strategy in 1 hitting a person with AWP...


@brett friggin favre Didnt read ur post. U are in my "ignore list".

Trust me, this is not leaving a good impression and I'd suggest changing your manner of approach and discussion as this will lead you nowhere.

[LogaN]

I'm happy that you actually read my post! Oh. Wait.




Either I misunderstand your english due to bad grammar... Or you're not all that bright. Re-read what you've just wrote here.



It's sad that 152 hours don't really teach you anything then. It would be enough for most people, but looking at your comments, seems like you haven't learn while playing those hours.



Restricting to balance is absolutely fine for these reasons:
1) It's nearly impossible to have absolute balance just by nerfing/buffing all races and that would take much more effort than required.
2) Some races, such as vagabonds, work better when they're restricted - a server full of stuck vagabonds or a server full of molecules would not be fun for anyone.
3) Most of the restricted races are higher level races in a way to reward and give a sense of accomplishment.



Read the posts above this. Vaga wars can already be quite annoying and there's no reason to extend that. Furthermore, playing a restricted race (we can take one of the vagas for example, because they seem to be your biggest problem) again shows that you've earned it through effort and blood and it reflects it.



Umm... Yes you can? It's a 1 shot (for the most part) kill with AWP (especially with extra damage) whereas with a scout you need to be much more precise (headshot) or risk being hit and dying. You can no scope with awp just as well as with scout. If you have a problem with not seeing these guns... Well, go play in our pub server or somewhere else. AWP on a WCS is over-powered and it makes it much more balanced when you don't have one.



Because tournaments are not playing in WarCraft mod. AWP takes away some of the skill from the game, which is why it is not in our WCS server. There's not that much strategy in 1 hitting a person with AWP...



Trust me, this is not leaving a good impression and I'd suggest changing your manner of approach and discussion as this will lead you nowhere.

Thanks. U r the one of the few(only 2) that explained their points and didnt just say "Hey im and admin here we dont take sugetions go fuck yourself"

And with awp u cant hit someone from miles aways with no scope or while running or jumping like u can with scout i tested it many times u can do it like 1/100 but with scout u just need to aim and shoot...

"1) It's nearly impossible to have absolute balance just by nerfing/buffing all races and that would take much more effort than required."
Thats impossible but u can get near there. :P

"2) Some races, such as vagabonds, work better when they're restricted - a server full of stuck vagabonds or a server full of molecules would not be fun for anyone."
I know im not saying they should be completly unretricted but the number could be increased... One thing that could fix the stuck problem is to divide the ultimate in two(if possible)
like lace should stop it if u try to go invisible but should alow u use it to become visible. Other thing that would make them less op is to increase a little cooldown like 2/3 seconds to it.
Spider is another race that could have his ult cooldown increase to 2/3 secs they already have speed and long jump...

3) Most of the restricted races are higher level races in a way to reward and give a sense of accomplishment.

high? 300 isnt high(atleast for me) i had 3500+ in another server and i got 1000+ in one month...

Sry about my grammar, english aint my main language, but its good enough for u to understand most of it :P
And thanks again for ur reply.

[Erdenay]

Thanks. U r the one of the few(only 2) that explained their points and didnt just say "Hey im and admin here we dont take sugetions go fuck yourself"

Most of people are civilized here - but someone new (it doesn't matter that you played a few odd hundred hours in the server - you are new to the forums) comes in and then suddenly starts attacking the server, that sort of feedback could be seen a mile away. I'm not saying that they've responded the best way possible - but your approach antagonized the vast majority of people here.


And with awp u cant hit someone from miles aways with no scope or while running or jumping like u can with scout i tested it many times u can do it like 1/100 but with scout u just need to aim and shoot...

Not quite as well as with scout, but you can still no scope pretty well. People already complain (including you) about vaga's power - now imagine a vagabond with an AWP who would 1 hit everyone 90% of the time? Yeah, not exactly something that we need at all. AWP would add no new dimensions to the server - it would not give anything at all except more people complaining about how this is bad, that is bad, etc.


"1) It's nearly impossible to have absolute balance just by nerfing/buffing all races and that would take much more effort than required."
Thats impossible but u can get near there. :P

There's more than one way to approach that balance - and I think IBIS has done quite well with those regards. As of now, there are no game breaking races or skills and you can counter anything with more than one race, strategy or item. Some of it requires skill, yes, but vagabonds are not even the main nuisances in the server... Those would be jacks and humans.


"2) Some races, such as vagabonds, work better when they're restricted - a server full of stuck vagabonds or a server full of molecules would not be fun for anyone."
I know im not saying they should be completly unretricted but the number could be increased... One thing that could fix the stuck problem is to divide the ultimate in two(if possible)
like lace should stop it if u try to go invisible but should alow u use it to become visible. Other thing that would make them less op is to increase a little cooldown like 2/3 seconds to it.
Spider is another race that could have his ult cooldown increase to 2/3 secs they already have speed and long jump...

Why? What's the point of those races having higher limits? What exactly would that bring to the table?

That would be changing the whole point and the dynamics of the races - and I definitely don't see that happening. Barring few maps (such as port), vaga's are not OP at all - you just have to be smart about them. Don't just stand in open places - lure them into smaller places, use flashlight, buy a lace - and barring few exceptionally good vagabonds/vagalion, you will have no problems killing most of them.

If you think this spiderman is bad... You should have seen it before the nerf - it could get to the enemy spawn in most maps in 5 seconds. It has been nerfed plenty and it's fine as it is. If you would increase the cooldown for either of those 2 races, it would be game breaking - they would lose their one main advantage and they'd no longer even be good races.


3) Most of the restricted races are higher level races in a way to reward and give a sense of accomplishment.

high? 300 isnt high(atleast for me) i had 3500+ in another server and i got 1000+ in one month...

Most people don't play as much as you do and there's still quite a few people who haven't reached that. It is also interesting to see how they promise to rape everyone once they get vaga... And then learn it's not that easy.


Sry about my grammar, english aint my main language, but its good enough for u to understand most of it :P
And thanks again for ur reply.

All of that is fine - English is my 3rd language as well. As long as you don't act like all knowing and instead of attacking the server, start civilized discussions and suggestions, you will be fine and most people (barring few) will not act assholes. However, as far as your proposed changes for "balance," I honestly don't see any of them happening.

[LogaN]

attacking the server


I didnt attack the server if it sounded like that im sorry i just tried to point flaw and give sugetions... But i really disgree when someone says that they r balanced when only 3 races can counter them and they can if u see them if u dont u r dead. but the thing that annoys me is that with their ulti they get to u in seconds and u dont even hear footsteps i rather play against a race thats always 100% invisible but i can hear them than against a vaga -.-



Not quite as well as with scout, but you can still no scope pretty well. People already complain (including you) about vaga's power - now imagine a vagabond with an AWP who would 1 hit everyone 90% of the time? Yeah, not exactly something that we need at all. AWP would add no new dimensions to the server - it would not give anything at all except more people complaining about how this is bad, that is bad, etc.


Vagas are retricted to scout/knife or only knife even if awp wasnt restricted they couldnt buy it :P. And i think i would prefer a vaga with an awp but without their ulti than a vaga as they r now...



There's more than one way to approach that balance - and I think IBIS has done quite well with those regards. As of now, there are no game breaking races or skills and you can counter anything with more than one race, strategy or item. Some of it requires skill, yes, but vagabonds are not even the main nuisances in the server... Those would be jacks and humans.


I dont have problem with those... the only thing i dont like is the "new" bash that mess up ur aim -.-




Why? What's the point of those races having higher limits? What exactly would that bring to the table?

That would be changing the whole point and the dynamics of the races - and I definitely don't see that happening. Barring few maps (such as port), vaga's are not OP at all - you just have to be smart about them. Don't just stand in open places - lure them into smaller places, use flashlight, buy a lace - and barring few exceptionally good vagabonds/vagalion, you will have no problems killing most of them.

If you think this spiderman is bad... You should have seen it before the nerf - it could get to the enemy spawn in most maps in 5 seconds. It has been nerfed plenty and it's fine as it is. If you would increase the cooldown for either of those 2 races, it would be game breaking - they would lose their one main advantage and they'd no longer even be good races.


The problem is their mobility is alot higher than most of the other races if u dont want to nerf them atleast buff the others... they Already have high speed, low grav, invisiblity, stun, flickering why they need an ultimate that makes them go "around the world" in 3 seconds...
Someone that knows how to bhop just need speed and low grav to go "around the world" in 5 secs why would they need more?




However, as far as your proposed changes for "balance," I honestly don't see any of them happening.

Well i made a list with some but after reading ur post i deleted the ones about changing vagas and spider ulti but i still thing that their mobility is to high..


Tell me what u think about them:

Add the window that u get with blood mage telling u that u revived someone to other races that can ress instead of just text(So u can easily see it and do need to look at the chat).

Races that can revive ppl could get a small amount of xp when ppl revived by them get kills. This would make ppl level their ress skills first to help their team win the round.

Knife and head shot kill could give a xp bonus.

Drecrease the number of items u can buy to 1. Races should be good because their skill set is good not because u have good items.

Get a bonus exp if u plant/defuse/save hosties (teammates around u also get the bonus).

If the code that makes u unable to go past the maxed skill levels is hard to change u could add something like this, if u win a around with a maxed race and didnt die u would get like 100xp added to a bank then u could add it to anyother race u have.

If i remember anything else ill add more.

[B1ackOut]

But i really disgree when someone says that they r balanced when only 3 races can counter them and they can if u see them if u dont u r dead. but the thing that annoys me is that with their ulti they get to u in seconds and u dont even hear footsteps i rather play against a race thats always 100% invisible but i can hear them than against a vaga -.-

This is why we have laces. They will freeze the vaga when they get close to you and make it very easy to kill. The ultimate of the vaga races is what makes it a vaga race, it is supposed to be able to mess people up. Without that ultimate it is not a vaga. Also vaga ulti is not op as it makes a rather noticeable sound the closer they get to you. Someone who claims to be so skilled should have known that.


The problem is their mobility is alot higher than most of the other races if u dont want to nerf them atleast buff the others... they Already have high speed, low grav, invisiblity, stun, flickering why they need an ultimate that makes them go "around the world" in 3 seconds...
Someone that knows how to bhop just need speed and low grav to go "around the world" in 5 secs why would they need more?
Again this is the point of a Vaga race to be able to zip around the map at high speeds and invisible. The ultimate is easily counterable with a lace as they get frozen with only a knife out.

As for you list,
1) If you can not read chat then why should we add useless code?
2) This point as been brought up and denied I think.
3) No, this is a key feature of our wcs server, the ability to buff up your player has and will always be a part of the game.
4) We already do.
5) In a game based 100% on xp, why give away more xp than necessary to the killer, and why give xp and levels to a race you are not playing?

[HypeRNT]

Ok, listen let me explain to you by a guy who really doesn't give a fuck what anyone thinks.

Vaga is strong, only at certain maps and situations, now if you said spiderman was OP, i woulda said yes, hes pretty gay on every map on every situation. Vaga is good when you have a good team, because that means the other team is going to lose and be poor making them have less of chance to have a lace or be smart enough to change race for you to counter. Vaga gets countered very easy, especially vagalion. Too many races these days being played like shadow of the void,warden,shadow hunter,human and athena that either have a lace automatically or have skills like bash to freeze vaga long enough to kill him. Its really that simple, even a flash light reveals you so its pretty basic killing vagas. And you really don't want them to be unrestricted because it would make this imbalanced due to too many people flying around from spwn to spwn picking of players that aren't vagabonds. I cant put it anymore simpler then this, they are STRONG, but not OP.

Now about the auto snipers and awps, i would definitely enable awps just because they really aren't great in wcs servers unless you have a race for them. On Ibis there is many races that have speed boosts and evasion and can fly, making awping without any other special powers really hard. Awp is expensive, heavy, and if you want to waste your money on it then go ahead.Can people do good with an awp? yeah of course, but would it be OP or imbalanced? i would say definitely no.
And auto snipers are different because they shoot at a faster rate, and are very accurate and this could be a small problem with some of the races like raiden, even though i still think it would be pretty useless against most races on most maps to even use auto.

Now the last part, you may not be new to the server, but you are new to the forums and the way things are done here. You don't try to come in with a bunch of people you are unfamiliar with and try to insult their server, that is rude and will definitely cause an argument. These guys know any and all problems that could be with the server, and if they thought it was important enough to do something about it, they would have done it long ago, clearly this is not the case so i suggest you drop the topic and just keep playing on the server.

[CYBER]

Half the shit you mentionned ALREADY exist on our server, which just shows u're a blind rage-a-holic that cant see balance of features in game if they smacked u in the face or fucked u in the ass. U're also a hypocrite talking out of ur ass because you contradict yourself every other word. First u claim that all races shouldnt be restricted, the u bitch about races being OP AND WANT TO NEEF THEM, then u bith that there shouldnt be item restriction on races, then u just claim that the number of heald item needs decrease on some races.... MAKE UP UR FUCKING MIND. The way i see it is that we already have a decent balance and you simply dont like how we compensate one thing for another to achieve that balance, and you want US to change everythin for YOU just so that we closer to a server u used to play on bcoa u cant play properly here for shhit... Erdenay is being more than tolerant with you, you're ranting and arguein with OPINION and not FACTS. This will never end ... I frankly prefer of if it was hyper argueig ... At least the fucker knows when to quit on a lost cause, and even HIM thinks u're useless. 150 hours is NOTHINg on this server, we have people that have over thousands of hours here and know more about the server than u claim. U're just too lazy to learn and adapt and want us to that for u. We make all the races here from scratch, ZERO codes them himself and maintains them himself and balances himself, stop taking pride in servers that just buy race packa for a price and just spam the server with shitty re-used races to make money off of u, here WE build the races, we build the balance, WE build the server, Nd no matter how hard u try, no one will give a damn about that u think. I actually think u're just butthurt about a few races and items, and cant adapt in game, and u're here bitching about it. The server here is a STRATEGY server, we host scrim tournaments and etc (which i doubt any other server even does that) and we care more about a team win than a personal gain. I would gladly take a bullet from a more pivotal team member if i can ensure the team victory, and ppl get upset more if the team lost rather than if they died, thats how our server works with strategy and balance, so take ur awpa and autos and shoot them up ur butthurt ass. Whether u're 26 or just 6 u ARE a kid because u cant see when u have a lost cause and yet u continue to bicker. u're enjoying erdenay's replies because he's giving u the time of day bcos he has patience, but at the end of the day, neither u,or erdenay can make ANY statement that will get ANYTHING changed around here, becauae the actual people that DO have influence on servers are pissed off of their mind because of useless bitching ass. ... Please leave, and bring me hyper back at least he learns.

[StarsMine]

Logan, when making a post, you need to learn how to write well, scribble and spasm are very good at this, brett and cyber not so much.
Write it, keep it CONCISE, and then reread it to look for any tone you did not want or any thing that can misinterpreted and fix it. You seem to feel like you keep getting misinterpreted. That is due to your writing style and tone that is present in your posts. You are allowing it in your writing.

As others have said the AWP does not fit into the playing style of our server, if we introduced it, we would have to retool most of the other races to fit. That's just something we are not interested in doing. The restricted races are restricted as others have said, vagabond has a hell of a time killing another vagabond.

[CYBER]

Logan, when making a post, you need to learn how to write well, scribble and spasm are very good at this, brett and cyber not so much. Write it, keep it CONCISE, and then reread it to look for any tone you did not want or any thing that can misinterpreted and fix it. You seem to feel like you keep getting misinterpreted. That is due to your writing style and tone that is present in your posts. You are allowing it in your writing. As others have said the AWP does not fit into the playing style of our server, if we introduced it, we would have to retool most of the other races to fit. That's just something we are not interested in doing. The restricted races are restricted as others have said, vagabond has a hell of a time killing another vagabond.Party pooper! Also, fuck u! ... But u're right, my posts are the holy grail of grammatically incorrect posts... Heck even this one takes the cake. But refardless of u crappy grammar, i do insist on the points i brought up. Ciao now, i have anoter thread to flame.

[LogaN]

Now about the auto snipers and awps, i would definitely enable awps just because they really aren't great in wcs servers unless you have a race for them. On Ibis there is many races that have speed boosts and evasion and can fly, making awping without any other special powers really hard. Awp is expensive, heavy, and if you want to waste your money on it then go ahead.Can people do good with an awp? yeah of course, but would it be OP or imbalanced? i would say definitely no.
And auto snipers are different because they shoot at a faster rate, and are very accurate and this could be a small problem with some of the races like raiden, even though i still think it would be pretty useless against most races on most maps to even use auto.


Exactly!


stop taking pride in servers that just buy race packa for a price and just spam the server with shitty re-used races to make money off of u,


Again u r talking about things u dont know...



and we care more about a team win than a personal gain. I would gladly take a bullet from a more pivotal team member if i can ensure the team victory, and ppl get upset more if the team lost rather than if they died, thats how our server works with strategy and balance,

Thats how i think! If my team is losing i change to a race like blood mage to help the team and not to a race that counters the guy on the enemy team with most kills or to a race thats strong so i have a better score... thats why i gave the sugetion to races that ress ppl to get small bonus exp...



Write it, keep it CONCISE, and then reread it to look for any tone you did not want or any thing that can misinterpreted and fix it. You seem to feel like you keep getting misinterpreted. That is due to your writing style and tone that is present in your posts. You are allowing it in your writing.


I try... every time i make a post i copy all quotes to a text doc so i can read everything over and over again i never wanted to sound rude or make u guys think that i want to FORCE u to CHANGE things i was trying to give sugestions...



As others have said the AWP does not fit into the playing style of our server, if we introduced it, we would have to retool most of the other races to fit. That's just something we are not interested in doing. The restricted races are restricted as others have said, vagabond has a hell of a time killing another vagabond.

hyper thinks like me about awp and auto :P
i didnt sugest them to be unretritecd so i could use them, i did it because i really think that they are not as good as most of u say because they are heavy and theres alot of races with high speed, invisibility, long jump etc... I really hate ppl running around with weapons like p90 spray and preying wich takes no skill and u dont see me saying that it should be restricted...

[acolyte_to_jippity]

hyper thinks like me about awp and auto

you don't know just how much that hurts your position.

http://www.ibisgaming.com/wcs_stats/player.php?id=26889

[LogaN]

you don't know just how much that hurts your position.


Why? what he said about those weapons being heavy, slow at reloading and easy to evade its true.... they are part of the game if they were broken i think valve would change them... I played 1.6 for years and i dont remember seeing a server where awp and auto were retricted in source they are in almost every server... When i played source every day i played in servers where u could buy awp and i always played with scout wich i think is 100x better than awp.

[Erdenay]

I didnt attack the server if it sounded like that im sorry i just tried to point flaw and give sugetions... But i really disgree when someone says that they r balanced when only 3 races can counter them and they can if u see them if u dont u r dead. but the thing that annoys me is that with their ulti they get to u in seconds and u dont even hear footsteps i rather play against a race thats always 100% invisible but i can hear them than against a vaga -.-

No problem - but it definitely did sound like this server is awful, other servers are good, blah blah. Um, if you don't mind me asking, which 3 races can counter vagas? I can easily counter vaga with pretty much ANY race and I believe most of the players are able to do as well. The key to countering vagas are playing smart - if you don't want to die, don't be staying at open spaces and try to lure vagas in corridors and etc. Always buy a lace, use the flashlight. All these things I've mentioned before and they're just some rather basic counters to vaga... Trust me, you can easily counter them if you want. As far as not hearing footsteps... They have a VERY, VERY distinct woosh sound which makes them very easy to hear.


Vagas are retricted to scout/knife or only knife even if awp wasnt restricted they couldnt buy it :P. And i think i would prefer a vaga with an awp but without their ulti than a vaga as they r now...

I was getting an idea you were suggesting an awp for vaga - my bad. However, races like raiden, nebula, human, molecule would ABUSE badly with an awp, so I honestly don't see how this would be helping the server rather than just giving more people a reason to complain. Hah - perhaps quite a few would, but it's a no-no for 2 reasons:
1) People could pick up an AWP after vaga's death.
2) Vaga without his ultimate is no longer a vaga - that would kill one of the favourite races in the server and that's just not going to happen.


I dont have problem with those... the only thing i dont like is the "new" bash that mess up ur aim -.-

Precisely. If anything, that's a much bigger problem than vagabonds as it was actually not like that in the old server - and it's change that probably should be made... But it won't happen from what I understood.


The problem is their mobility is alot higher than most of the other races if u dont want to nerf them atleast buff the others... they Already have high speed, low grav, invisiblity, stun, flickering why they need an ultimate that makes them go "around the world" in 3 seconds...
Someone that knows how to bhop just need speed and low grav to go "around the world" in 5 secs why would they need more?

Buff in how? Vagalion is already pretty damn easy to counter in almost any map and there's very few people that give problems to me as lion. Vagabond is a bigger problem and on some maps - I do agree somewhat.. But all in all, they are definitely NOT op and you can still counter them without buffing any other races. Furthermore, if you would start buffing other races, that could cause a lot of problems and would need a lot of testing and work... Definitely not worth it.


Well i made a list with some but after reading ur post i deleted the ones about changing vagas and spider ulti but i still thing that their mobility is to high..


Tell me what u think about them:

Add the window that u get with blood mage telling u that u revived someone to other races that can ress instead of just text(So u can easily see it and do need to look at the chat).

Races that can revive ppl could get a small amount of xp when ppl revived by them get kills. This would make ppl level their ress skills first to help their team win the round.

Knife and head shot kill could give a xp bonus.

Drecrease the number of items u can buy to 1. Races should be good because their skill set is good not because u have good items.

Get a bonus exp if u plant/defuse/save hosties (teammates around u also get the bonus).

If the code that makes u unable to go past the maxed skill levels is hard to change u could add something like this, if u win a around with a maxed race and didnt die u would get like 100xp added to a bank then u could add it to anyother race u have.

If i remember anything else ill add more.

*Sigh* This actually does show that you've not been paying attention. As Blackout answered... Most of these are already in the server. (Knife/HS bonus xp, hostie/bomb xp, etc)

I don't like any other suggestions bad giving the xp to the resser if a player who was revived would get a kill - but as far as I can recall, that has already been discussed (as noted by Blackout) and it seems the idea was denied.

@ Cyber

Dear mother of good... Were you INTENTIONALLY trying to type bad while you were raging? :D

Although you do make a few valid points - with the most valid point being your last. Logan, Cyber is correct - both me and you have very little power in the hierarchy (that would be true for Cyber too) as we are not in the clan. You're just a regular, I'm a puny admin and Cyber's a puny ULA - we all have a very limited say of what's going to be implemented. Unless you bring a REALLY good idea, don't expect anything to happen.

@ Starsmine

Ditto. You make excellent points about that as well.


you don't know just how much that hurts your position.

http://www.ibisgaming.com/wcs_stats/player.php?id=26889

Hah, this. Hyper has been raging on the forums quite a well - and most of people disagree with most of his ideas.


Why? what he said about those weapons being heavy, slow at reloading and easy to evade its true.... they are part of the game if they were broken i think valve would change them... I played 1.6 for years and i dont remember seeing a server where awp and auto were retricted in source they are in almost every server... When i played source every day i played in servers where u could buy awp and i always played with scout wich i think is 100x better than awp.

Have you seen the amount of people complaining about AWP? This is the by far most argued and discussed weapon in CS - and while it would be too far to say it's broken, it's definitely more powerful than any other weapon and that along with extra damage would be deadly. Also, not sure why would you use scout (and don't forget it's your opinion), but with AWP you will kill the person with 1 shot MOST of the time and if you are a good shooter... Ouch.

[LogaN]

but with AWP you will kill the person with 1 shot MOST of the time and if you are a good shooter... Ouch.
I started to buy scout instead of awp because when i came to source from 1.6 i was almost always the first one to pick awp and alot of ppl from my team killed me because they thought i was using an exploit wich was already fixed -.-. And i played mostly with scout because im a good shooter if u check my stats page(acolyte posted it before) my headshot % is the 3rd highest from top 200 and scout always kills with headshots.

[maynard]

stop talking about the awp, it's not gonna happen... -end.

[Vladninja]

There was any rollback? I thought the last post i saw was from brett friggin favre but then i refreshed the link and like 3 post were gone -.-

Your Posts our now being moderated by an IBIS Clan member... as this discussion has spiraled into nothing more than spam and flaming.
You have posted your suggestions... Now get back in the server.

@lso I am not modding this thread but would have if someone else hadn't gotten to it first. :smirk:

[ZERO]

U could also add xp bonus to knife kills because knife races r harder to get kills when u r low level. Adding bonus to head shots would be also nice so ppl would try to aim at the head instead just "spray and prey" with p90 xD

There is a bonus...

[ZERO]

Also I just want to take the time to point out some things. TeacherCreature does do some great work and at least used to run war3 servers, I am not sure if he still does or not as I can not locate them. What I can say is that when you look on http://www.ownageclan.com/ you almost always see IBIS Gaming as having the most or one of the most populated war3 servers. We are 20 slot b/c that is the type of gameplay that we support.

Now my life would be a million times easier if I just never restricted anything and just used everyone elses races. However, clearly there is a reason why I have spent years remaking our old races and even now making plans to recode all the races that I did not 100% make from scratch. The reason for the latter is that although I did not make all the races in the current server most of the code for all the races including my old ones is very out of date. It is important to have a streamed line approach to the race programing so that bugs can be fixed easier and performance optimized.

[LogaN]

Also I just want to take the time to point out some things. TeacherCreature does do some great work and at least used to run war3 servers, I am not sure if he still does or not as I can not locate them. What I can say is that when you look on http://www.ownageclan.com/ you almost always see IBIS Gaming as having the most or one of the most populated war3 servers. We are 20 slot b/c that is the type of gameplay that we support.

Now my life would be a million times easier if I just never restricted anything and just used everyone elses races. However, clearly there is a reason why I have spent years remaking our old races and even now making plans to recode all the races that I did not 100% make from scratch. The reason for the latter is that although I did not make all the races in the current server most of the code for all the races including my old ones is very out of date. It is important to have a streamed line approach to the race programing so that bugs can be fixed easier and performance optimized.

Thanks for ur reply u are the one i was waiting to see posting here because u are the one "wasting" time coding the races and not some random admin which knows nothing or very little about wcs *cough*Cyber*cough*.
I suggested the bonus exp on knife/hs because when i sarted to play here, every time i killed someone with knife/hs didnt notice anything mentioning it the chat messages.

[Masskid]

Thanks for ur reply u are the one i was waiting to see posting here because u are the one "wasting" time coding the races and not some random admin which knows nothing or very little about wcs *cough*Cyber*cough*.
I suggested the bonus exp on knife/hs because when i sarted to play here, every time i killed someone with knife/hs didnt notice anything mentioning it the chat messages.
It does not tell you you get bonus xp. It just gives it to you, a standard kill gives 30 but a knife gives 69 (39 bonus). I'm not sure about a head shot. Also you're 25/26 (whatever) please stop using "u", "ur", and "r". :( I'm beginning to lose brain cells

[LogaN]

It does not tell you you get bonus xp. It just gives it to you, a standard kill gives 30 but a knife gives 69 (39 bonus). I'm not sure about a head shot. Also you're 25/26 (whatever) please stop using "u", "ur", and "r". :( I'm beginning to lose brain cells

If you have read all my posts i try to write the words the right way, the thing is, here it's 7 am and most of my brain cells are sleeping. :P
And i understand you, in my country most of the teens use X instead of S/SS/Z and i hate it too. xD

[Erdenay]

It does not tell you you get bonus xp. It just gives it to you, a standard kill gives 30 but a knife gives 69 (39 bonus). I'm not sure about a head shot. Also you're 25/26 (whatever) please stop using "u", "ur", and "r". :( I'm beginning to lose brain cells

HS = at least 60. Those are the basic minimum values for the kills (if you kill someone with a skill, it gives 30 as well), but you can get more experience for killing high levels.

[HypeRNT]

you don't know just how much that hurts your position.

http://www.ibisgaming.com/wcs_stats/player.php?id=26889

what does this stats page show? i looked at it and it wasn't me?

[LogaN]

what does this stats page show? i looked at it and it wasn't me?

He was talking to me, that page is mine.

[HypeRNT]

He was talking to me, that page is mine.
I thought some1 responded that to a quote about me? I know Tom said something about me raging that's were i stopped reading and said time to go out.

[Erdenay]

I thought some1 responded that to a quote about me? I know Tom said something about me raging that's were i stopped reading and said time to go out.

Which is true ;) You have been raging, complaining and discussing various things a lot recently. Some of them make sense, some of them don't, but what I said is true.

[What]

I just like how this thread started as a simple, "hey look at this humerous thing" and turned into and epic haiku of lame.

[HypeRNT]

Which is true ;) You have been raging, complaining and discussing various things a lot recently. Some of them make sense, some of them don't, but what I said is true.

Do you even know what raging means? Or complaining? Or the different between opinions and suggestions? Im usually pretty good about making sense, so next time either provide proof or gtfo. And what i posted on warden's mole was a simple suggestion that had alot of good things behind it, and im pretty sure i wasn't the one raging on that topic rofl. And stop quoting me, im not the one who is bitching on this thread, talk to that Logan dude, he wants shit changed.

[Erdenay]

Do you even know what raging means? Or complaining? Or the different between opinions and suggestions? Im usually pretty good about making sense, so next time either provide proof or gtfo. And what i posted on warden's mole was a simple suggestion that had alot of good things behind it, and im pretty sure i wasn't the one raging on that topic rofl. And stop quoting me, im not the one who is bitching on this thread, talk to that Logan dude, he wants shit changed.

Someone stepped on the wrong foot today? I wasn't taking a dig at you - yet you seem to be taking it that way. Just because a suggestion makes sense DOES not mean it's a good suggestion. No, you're obviously not raging here - I was talking about a much longer period with much more threads. The only reason why I am quoting you is because there were connections to you in the thread and someone needed a clarification.

Also, as far as Logan is concerned, unless he brings something new up, all of his questions have already been answered.

[Akoiah]

cock.

[SCRIBBLE]

Destroy this thread with fire. Let it die.

Someone please close this, it served its purpose.

[CYBER]

Thanks for ur reply u are the one i was waiting to see posting here because u are the one "wasting" time coding the races and not some random admin which knows nothing or very little about wcs *cough*Cyber*cough*..
Im not just a random fucking admin u fucking dimwitt, im an upper level admin, one of 6 on all the servers, and that STILL isnt the point.

The point is that i gave u all the right answers that everyone confirmed and backed up and shared, and you were STILL too much of a numb-skull to comprehend the fact that u are argueing with poor arguements against an entire party of people telling u that u are wrong.

ZERO showed up and told u the SAME fucking thing every clanner like maynard vlad and whatnot, or any upper like me brett steamr scribble spasm would have told u, and any regular admin would have told u, and any veteran regular would have told u. Alllllllll of this redundant is summarised into 1 contracted word: GTFO.

As simple as that.
I second the request to closing this thread.

this thread was originally created for good reason and had a lot of knowledge brought to the table about circular and perfect imbalance,And this idiot hijacked it for his own personal vendetta making the thread utterly useless.

Close it, or clean it up from all that crap and keep only the shit BEFORE logan showed up please?:) thanks mod:)

[ZERO]

Let us keep it open so we can get back on topic.

I want to mention that one way I have always seen the balance is also in a manor of play styles. The races generally promote very different play styles and in some cases races of particular play styles balance out races of other play styles. However it is important to understand that these play styles fall into the general way that people approach fps games. Thus there will always be particular races that are more popular or less popular based on nothing other than play style regardless of how good they are in reality.

For example think of Pokemon, you had 3 choices: Bulbasaur, Charmander, or Squirtle. The vast majority of players selected Charmander b/c it spits out fire and everyone knows that fire is cool and owns shit. However, many kinds that were smarter selected Squirtle which owns the most popularly selected Charmander. Then there is the strange kids that for some reason selected Bulbasaur for some reason such as they hate life, lost a beat or just like doing things the hard way (or maybe they are just retarded).

Now what is important to understand is that which of those 3 you selected is logically going to impact your KDR however that relative value does not make one better than the other. The total kills for Bulbasaur are always going to be low that is the way it is. Despite not being most popular Squirtle will pwn Charmander but will get raped when other types come around.

However regardless of the strengths and weaknesses of various Pokemon we all preferred different ones not becuase of how good they actually were against generally what everyone else had but becuase that was the style of gameplay we preferred. Now obviously you could go competitive and that tosses some things out the window but even my decks always had my fav Pokemon (yes I played in tournaments) because sometimes it can be more about how you won than the fact you won. :smirk:

[Erdenay]

So... What zero is saying that Wolfen is a bulbasaur, squirtle is Aleko and Get a haircut you hippie is charmander.

[maynard]

wait.. so you're saying I'm unintelligent for picking charmander?:smirk:

[What]

Whats Snorlax in this metaphor?

btw I have like 500 mew cards if anyone wants any, i had an in at a theatre where they were given away

[Blackmage]

Hey, I pick Bulbasaur to counter the counters! That, and I live in my own little world.

Zero, great plan. "Let's get back on topic, oh wait, POKEMON".

[ZERO]

rofl:lmao:

[ZERO]

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/balancing-for-skill

---------- Post added at 10:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:30 PM ----------

http://penny-arcade.com/patv/episode/counter-play

---------- Post added at 10:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:32 PM ----------

I think it is funny to think about those 2 and the way abilities for the races are set up. :smirk: