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View Full Version : WCS autobalance tweek?



CYBER
08-09-2012, 04:27 PM
Hey @Zero,
Currently the autobalance (when there's 2+ number of players difference in teams) randomly selects a player from the excess team to the other team.
This is currently causing a lot of issues in wcs though, because it seems to also pick people on restricted races, throwing them into the other team where someone has a restricted race too, making you lose your race and forced to switch off. Leaving the excess team with a chance to steal the race from you.

1- Can you make it so that the autobalance selects players NOT on restricted races for the autobalance first? if anything, it should randomly select a player to be switched, check if he would retain his race after the switch (ideally non restricted race, or if the race limit didnt get exceeded on target team), and then switch them. If it were to kick them off, randomly select another guy? If all are restricted, fuck 'em, switch nway:P

is that possible? please? i dont see why a player who got on a race first on a team, gets randomly kicked off it with autoswitch bcos the other team players are leaving ... it already happened to me 5 times last few days...

2- Any chance we could get a ruling on whether or not the player can keep dibs on a restricted race after switched by autobalance?
I was asked to rule such scenario where the fucking vagalion got switched and the player couldnt get back to his team for like 5 rounds bcos of the balance...
So i made an exceptional ruling of switching the player back with a random guy and let him keep the race until someone can confirm who gets to keep the race. ideally this problem would be bypassed with the "checker" up top...

thanks.

Erdenay
08-09-2012, 05:10 PM
Just something I've noticed - almost every time, it's not a random selection from the opposing team: it's the player with the lowest score that is moved.

HypeRNT
08-09-2012, 05:31 PM
or a simple 30 second fix would be to limit players by selecting AUTO-SELECT team only and therefor would always have balanced teams and when needed admins can switch players for what ever reason(if playing with friends) hence removing any problems of not having balanced teams.

Pit_Viper1
08-09-2012, 07:07 PM
or a simple 30 second fix would be to limit players by selecting AUTO-SELECT team only and therefor would always have balanced teams and when needed admins can switch players for what ever reason(if playing with friends) hence removing any problems of not having balanced teams.

This^

I've been saying for a while that auto-assign needs to be the only option on the wcs server. There are far too many people who will ONLY play on one team and too many maps that will have people waiting in spec to join a specific team.

CYBER
08-09-2012, 07:10 PM
Tom.its not always the lowest score because i was team leading as vaga in one of those instances, it was a good balance in general because the teams got even but inlost my race for a while until the other guy got bored and switched off...As for hyper, ur comment reminded me of smthn. There was a a feature on a counter strik server i played in that basically checks how many wins in a ROW a team got. If a team got more than 4 wins in a row, without the other team winning once , it would basically scramble the teams (while keeping them on their race limits), it made it interesting bcos sometimes u're a T and sometimes ct and needed to change strategies and tactics with partners against enemies iff the team was OP as fuck for 4 wins in a row. ( for us it would me like 7 wins maybe, this gives u enough chances to try to counter the races and play smart, and at least win once! If STILL cant win a single time after 7 times, it scrambles u. 4 wins can very easily be comeback or interrupted with a win. 7 means shit hit the fan. Thoughts?

maynard
08-09-2012, 07:10 PM
yes, you keep the race if this happens. get back 2 your proper team, ask an admin for help if needed and take your race back.


or a simple 30 second fix would be to limit players by selecting AUTO-SELECT team only

Fuck no. that's beyond a retarded idea... cause one, people like playing certain sides depending on the map... and 2.... even if you could only select auto select... you will still end up the majority of the time with 1 team doing far better... meaning... people will still qq the teams aren't fair.

ZERO
08-09-2012, 07:32 PM
It should be possible to implement some sort of check for the races. However I would need to actually create from scratch an auto balance program that then uses this information. Currently it just uses the valve default plugin.

brett friggin favre
08-09-2012, 07:59 PM
Another thing about enforcing auto assign only is that it just causes more complications along the same lines of this post: restricted races. You're vaga, and you got autoassigned to the same team as the other vaga from last map. That would be the biggest fucking headache ever cuz with the two vagas now it would be happening, according to probability, every map.can you imagine the bitchery?

Op's idea is a good one, and I'm glad to see that it may be feasible.

CYBER
08-09-2012, 09:45 PM
It should be possible to implement some sort of check for the races. However I would need to actually create from scratch an auto balance program that then uses this informaiton. Currently it just uses the valve default plugin.

Thanks,
Steven

am i the only one laughing his ass off that zero:
1- signed his post????
2- WITH HIS REAL NAME?
lol.
that is all.

Spasm
08-09-2012, 09:54 PM
I saw that as well cyber, i think he mighta been drunk

Erdenay
08-09-2012, 10:07 PM
I saw that as well cyber, i think he mighta been drunk

Might? :smirk:

brett friggin favre
08-09-2012, 11:31 PM
i actually thought that was a copy/paste of a personal email to zero from a man named Steven in reply to zero's inquiry made to the man named steven.

but that's way funnier.

ZERO
08-10-2012, 12:27 AM
Ah I replied to this in between writing e-mails for work. I do not use auto sigs on my e-mails and always type out the ending depending on who it is going to so sometimes I start to default to it. Recently I have actually had to delete Thanks, ZERO from the end of my pms b/c I was like hold up if I send it like that people will be like wtf? The formality of all those dam e-mails is slipping into my posts lol

Thanks,
ZERO

brett friggin favre
08-10-2012, 12:37 AM
Thanks, Zero

Thanks,
Brett

XX0wnsXY
08-10-2012, 12:52 AM
I undersand now...


Regards,
Owns

On second thought...does anyone ever sign with regards? It sounds so...1873. I wouldnt know...i never have to write anything while wearing a monocle..but if i did, i would sign it with regards.

Erdenay
08-10-2012, 01:41 AM
I undersand now...


Regards,
Owns

On second thought...does anyone ever sign with regards? It sounds so...1873. I wouldnt know...i never have to write anything while wearing a monocle..but if i did, i would sign it with regards.

I use "Best Regards" every now and then, but that's mostly in the informal letters to friends and etc. Normally, I just use "Sincerely" or something to that extent.

CYBER
08-10-2012, 02:05 AM
I undersand now...Regards,OwnsOn second thought...does anyone ever sign with regards? It sounds so...1873. I wouldnt know...i never have to write anything while wearing a monocle..but if i did, i would sign it with regards.I personally use regards or 'cheers', most people here use that too.

HypeRNT
08-10-2012, 09:58 AM
Tom.its not always the lowest score because i was team leading as vaga in one of those instances, it was a good balance in general because the teams got even but inlost my race for a while until the other guy got bored and switched off...As for hyper, ur comment reminded me of smthn. There was a a feature on a counter strik server i played in that basically checks how many wins in a ROW a team got. If a team got more than 4 wins in a row, without the other team winning once , it would basically scramble the teams (while keeping them on their race limits), it made it interesting bcos sometimes u're a T and sometimes ct and needed to change strategies and tactics with partners against enemies iff the team was OP as fuck for 4 wins in a row. ( for us it would me like 7 wins maybe, this gives u enough chances to try to counter the races and play smart, and at least win once! If STILL cant win a single time after 7 times, it scrambles u. 4 wins can very easily be comeback or interrupted with a win. 7 means shit hit the fan. Thoughts?


Like that idea alot, im not sure if it would be easy to do that though. There is also another way were you have the option to join any team, but if you try to join ct's when its full you get auto joined on the other team, so like if there is 2 ct's and 1 t and you try to spam ct button you will get auto joined to terrorist side.

As for maynards post, retarded idea? its not an idea rofl its done in practically every server in every game so keep "retard" word to a minimum please. People like playing certain sides? DUH, pretty sure that's the problem in the first place rofl, hence the thread? One team might win the majority of the games even with auto balance you MAY be correct, but the games would sure be alot closer and more competitive and fun aswell, not many people like getting shit on 10-0(and this is being modest).

As for bretts post, This vaga race problem is because of the rule that makes no sense in any galaxy. No reason for one person to have the imaginary rights to the same race for aslong as he wants to play it.. ESPECIALLY on a 1 per player limited race, that's beyond dumb. You have people who join the server 2 rounds in asking for their race, you have people who join spec and come back asking for their race like we owe them something... As for auto balance, if you have vaga and you get auto balanced to ct's first, you will have that race first, just like right now if you would join the same team you would play that race first, and if you needed to go to another team you can simply ask an admin or ask for some1 to get spec to get auto assigned to the other team, not much different then what we are doing now when 2 people join the same team with the same race.

brett friggin favre
08-10-2012, 10:24 AM
Like that idea alot, im not sure if it would be easy to do that though. There is also another way were you have the option to join any team, but if you try to join ct's when its full you get auto joined on the other team, so like if there is 2 ct's and 1 t and you try to spam ct button you will get auto joined to terrorist side .

As for maynards post, retarded idea? its not an idea rofl its done in practically every server in every game so keep "retard" word to a minimum please. People like playing certain sides? DUH, pretty sure that's the problem in the first place rofl, hence the thread? One team might win the majority of the games even with auto balance you MAY be correct, but the games would sure be alot closer and more competitive and fun aswell, not many people like getting shit on 10-0(and this is being modest).

As for bretts post, This vaga race problem is because of the rule that makes no sense in any galaxy. No reason for one person to have the imaginary rights to the same race for aslong as he wants to play it.. ESPECIALLY on a 1 per player limited race, that's beyond dumb. You have people who join the server 2 rounds in asking for their race, you have people who join spec and come back asking for their race like we owe them something... As for auto balance, if you have vaga and you get auto balanced to ct's first, you will have that race first, just like right now if you would join the same team you would play that race first, and if you needed to go to another team you can simply ask an admin or ask for some1 to get spec to get auto assigned to the other team, not much different then what we are doing now when 2 people join the same team with the same race.

Nobody should be free to play vaga as long as they want? Fuck you asshole, i live in America, this server's in our capital, our players can play whatever they wanna play. We're not fucking socialists here, not yet anyway, they don't have to share shit. If you have a sweet ass car, guess what, that car's yours as long as you want it and you don't have to share it. If you're on vaga, shit's yours. Quit bitching about the rule, nobody's gonna change it just cuz some joe blow is butthurt since he can't play vaga.

And asking admins to change your team is exactly the headache I'm talking about. Nobody wants to deal with that every fucking round. You're also assuming:

1. The player asking to be switched actually was vaga last map.
2. The player who has taken over vaga on the other team will just give it up
3. There is an admin on who knows what he's doing
4. The admin also is willing to waste a round or 2 straightening everything out

Not going to happen. Oh and don't forget your helmet when you leave the house today, it's a dangerous world out there for downsies.

Blackmage
08-10-2012, 10:43 AM
A few problems. First, this thread was made because of the issue of autobalance (mid game not team making's auto assign) taking restricted races and putting them on the same team.

Second, many of the matches that go X-0 have more to do with one or two players who are good, rather than team balance. Other times, it's just snowballing, due to item shop. Neither of these things would really be solved by forcing auto-assign. It also would make it harder for various people to try and balance the teams, which sometimes just switch which is the winning team, but I digress.

As for who the rights go for, I believe the theory is "dedication over good machines". When we didn't have this rule, rights just went to those who had the fastest connection, something some people have no control over. The rights exist in any case, we just choose who they go to.

Finally, I love how Zero edited his post, but left Cyber's quote unmodified :P

With love,

Blackmage

HypeRNT
08-10-2012, 12:56 PM
Nobody should be free to play vaga as long as they want? Fuck you asshole, i live in America, this server's in our capital, our players can play whatever they wanna play. We're not fucking socialists here, not yet anyway, they don't have to share shit. If you have a sweet ass car, guess what, that car's yours as long as you want it and you don't have to share it. If you're on vaga, shit's yours. Quit bitching about the rule, nobody's gonna change it just cuz some joe blow is butthurt since he can't play vaga.

And asking admins to change your team is exactly the headache I'm talking about. Nobody wants to deal with that every fucking round. You're also assuming:

1. The player asking to be switched actually was vaga last map.
2. The player who has taken over vaga on the other team will just give it up
3. There is an admin on who knows what he's doing
4. The admin also is willing to waste a round or 2 straightening everything out

Not going to happen. Oh and don't forget your helmet when you leave the house today, it's a dangerous world out there for downsies.

Speaking of joe blow, first of all... what the fuck rofl? America? wut? Never said you cant play vaga as long as you want, but the rule that dictates once u have it you should have it forever no matter when you connect or what you do is stupid as fuck.If you connect to the server and its not taken, grab it and enjoy it as long as u want because no1 will tell u shit about it. But when you have vaga one map, join the server 4 mintues later on round 3 and ask for your race back thats fucking the stupidest shit ever. Sure if not for this rule guy with fastest connection would get it? well isnt that why we playing pc's and not consoles? better equipment usually has some sort of advantage? whats next you are going to tell me to play on lower resolution cuz i can see you too easily and you don't have as good as graphics card? That's the definition of America, first come first serve.

1. Once again read... If he had vaga last map and came late to the team were some1 else has vaga, then its his responsibility to get to the team he needs for his restricted class.
2. The player who took vaga on that team doesn't have to give it up if he got there first, like i said this is the current rule on the server.
3. There isnt many times that admins arent on the server or on for some1 to PM.
4. Why would he waste a round or 2? You swap some1 and you swap some1 else back ive seen this done plenty of times and it was done when players were usually dead and at the start of the map, hence not changing the outcome of the map.

Pointless post.


And to blackmage, you are correct, went a little of topic, after i saw cyber looking for a new method that wouldn't be hard to implement, my apology:wtg:

CYBER
08-10-2012, 02:30 PM
You have people who join the server 2 rounds in asking for their race, you have people who join spec and come back asking for their race like we owe them something...

If they were waiting on the server to load , itshouldnt take more than the first 2 rounds at MOST (and i have a fucking crappy loading screen...) so they should be able to keep their race.

As for the second part? WRONG.
if they change race once, or change teams, or move to spec WILLINGLY (even to fucking take a piss), they lose the right to the race.
That INCLUDES if you were afk for 1 minute and got booted to spec by the afk manager. If you cant hold on to it willingly, you cant claim it.

HOWEVER, if u got crashed by the server or the game (BECAUSE of wcs) or booted from the gamebecause someone joined with reserve slot (and came back within a couple minutes MAX), or if the autobalance shit happened, or you accidentally joined the same team as the other vaga at round 1 and are waiting to switch teams to claim it, then you can claim it as long as you TRY to do it as fast as possible.

you cant play 4-5 rounds and then go like "u know what? i was vaga before, joined wrong team, wanna play it now, so someone on other team get off..." . it doesnt work like that. its too late.


its all just common sense and courtesy, the only problems i see most of the time is dealing with trolls, assholes, pigheaded, or idiot people. I have yet to see anyone with common sense fight with someone else like him over this shit... we always settle. But unfortunately... idiots roam among the ibis regulars...



@ZERO, now back to my original idea, i hope you can do that shit zero, if you want i can create the algorithm for you, and all you'd need to do is replace it with the proper variables/language from valve?

maynard
08-10-2012, 03:46 PM
retarded idea? its not an idea rofl its done in practically every server in every game so keep "retard" word to a minimum please.

how the fuck is that not an idea? an idea is a thought or suggestion as to a possible course of action... which is what you did... hence it being an idea... are you really that stupid?




As for bretts post, This vaga race problem is because of the rule that makes no sense in any galaxy.

sure it does, you clearly just don't get it lol

Blackmage
08-10-2012, 04:21 PM
I also have a comment on Brett's "4. The admin also is willing to waste a round or 2 straightening everything out"

In recent weeks, I've had to make ruling based largely upon hearsay. Is there any way we can easily see who was on a restricted race recently? As we have 2 restricted to 2 races, and 4 restricted to 1, and may have more coming, it would be useful to be able to find this information. Even without worrying about map changes where we have some time to look before it happens, on map crashes, unless it's someone doing stellar, we can be largely on the honour system.

Dj panda
08-10-2012, 06:02 PM
Black, the easy way to do it is to check raceinfo near end of each map, and see who is on what, or if you have been paying attention to who is playing what in the game, you will know which person is playing what race.

CYBER
08-10-2012, 06:16 PM
Black, the easy way to do it is to check raceinfo near end of each map, and see who is on what, or if you have been paying attention to who is playing what in the game, you will know which person is playing what race.

dnt know about "race info" u probably mean playerinfo, but anyway
Black, think about it for a second, the most bitching would always be from vagas. IF anything, it would be molecule, then rap then flame preds (hardly)...

when u play in game, im sure u can remember who's the vagas fucking u up ? 4 vagas, 2 molecule. thats at most what u need to worry about because the others hardly ever occur.

Blackmage
08-10-2012, 06:28 PM
Check the race info of currently 6 races? Usually will only be a few of them but still, end of round, if you're alive, or need to buy tomes (saved money for a scroll, or periapt of health), you might be busy, or only have time to check one or two. If they've gone to spec, bought tomes, and rejoined, they can show up as being on that team too. As for watching people, beyond the needing to be noticed, the problem comes when they change races a few rounds prior, either onto, or off of, they can be missed. Had one where someone switched off for the last round, someone had gone on, played it for the last round. Then the first tried to get it back next map. Wasn't a problem because it had been noticed, but it easily could have been. But again, the big problem is map crashes, where if you weren't watching for limited races, it's easy to miss them.

Edit: Cyber: actually, FP more often than anything, excluding Lion for the moment, due to everyone trying to get on to level it. As for noticing the Vagas, I only really notice them if they are any good. Sometimes they stop doing anything useful, and I figure they just changed races. Molly can be even less noticeable, you usually have to be in combat with them, or have someone whining, but I digress.

ZERO
08-11-2012, 02:32 AM
On a note about restrections as stated in an old post I do plan to start making large edits to War3 after updating it after reprograming all the races. This is a bit dangerous b/c it basically puts us on our own for support but I feel that we will be able to patch a lot of bugs and get more features though extensive source code edits. One such example could be to the restrection system where as I could possible program it to keep track of all of this and activly enforce the policies by default. It may be possible to do this with a seporate plugin (this would be ideal) but in theory it is possible to actually program the mod to actually enforce the restrection policy automatically.