Vegas Upper window

[Dj panda]

I think the upper window on the vegas map should be considered an exploit of the map, because you can see through the floor and it is a very hard spot to shoot back at because the guy can see when your going to walk through due to the floor glitch. It is not an impossible spot to kill someone its still a hard shot.

[HypeRNT]

seeing thru the walls/floor is an exploit so yeah

[Dj panda]

Its exploiting the map in my book but i cant enforce it since there is no ruling on it :/

[acolyte_to_jippity]

you must be visible and shootable at all times. being somewhat hard to see is not illegal. as long as people stay fairly close to the window, then there's no rule against it. it is not allowed to be out of sight of an area vanillia players would be able to access.

[blackmail242]

Issue with this would be that if you enforce this then that makes way for enforcing no skybox walking with classes such as hell hunter which basically meant to walk on top of such maps. It starts with vegas and moves on to other maps like dust and so forth. Truth be told there are enough flying races to get you into the window on vegas and on top of that you have several races that will let you teleport in and destroy your opponent.

[Chikun]

3. Sky walking is permitted provided you’re in a spot that the opposing team can shoot back at. Going under the map, or to any place that allows you to see the enemy, but grants them 0 vision of you is not permitted unless you're passing through the area to get some where else.

Seeing as how there's no where to go and you can patiently wait knowing no one can see you I could see the argument against this spot, as awesome as it is.

[Chef C Green]

I could see the argument against this spot, as awesome as it is.

Yes, but you're not shooting players THROUGH the floor, you still have to peek over the edge of the balcony right? As Blackmail mentioned, there are over half a dozen classes that have the capability to get from the door way to there. If you're falling for them camping there round, after round, after round, that's you're fault... There are other paths to take, as well as the option to fly up there (or near there with a vaga) and check it for your team. Plus how often do we play vegas anyway...?

[Chikun]

Yes, but you're not shooting players THROUGH the floor, you still have to peek over the edge of the balcony right? As Blackmail mentioned, there are over half a dozen classes that have the capability to get from the door way to there. If you're falling for them camping there round, after round, after round, that's you're fault... There are other paths to take, as well as the option to fly up there (or near there with a vaga) and check it for your team. Plus how often do we play vegas anyway...?

The rule which I quoted in its entirety states that its against the rules to go to areas on the map that allow you to see the enemy through things the opposing player cannot unless you are "just passing through". It does specify shooting but it also implies that simply being able to see the enemy through walls when you aren't "just passing through" is also illegal.

[CYBER]

Hiding there is fine, even is completely invisible. The ONLY thing that matters is that you cannot SHOOT an enemy through wall or floor since they cant see u or shoot back. U hAve to PEEK out to kill someone. And that's where the other guy has a chance to wait for that peek and retaliate. If u are too dumb not to check that spot likee u would for skywlkers above bombsites on dust2, then u suck. its the same euling as hell hunter, perfectly fine as long as theyr have to be visible when they SHOOT u. Also, u can plant elsewhere or change race to human and tele to them wvery round when not expecting... Force them out... Even better, go shadow hunter and go to the bombsite feom the bottom elevetator-window thing with the zipline across and ward the living fuck under that upper window without touching bombsite obviously. U can either kill them with wards, or hear their damage and know to expect someone there... Thats what i do, works for me.

[HypeRNT]

Yes, but you're not shooting players THROUGH the floor, you still have to peek over the edge of the balcony right? As Blackmail mentioned, there are over half a dozen classes that have the capability to get from the door way to there. If you're falling for them camping there round, after round, after round, that's you're fault... There are other paths to take, as well as the option to fly up there (or near there with a vaga) and check it for your team. Plus how often do we play vegas anyway...?

It really shouldn't matter how many times the map is played or who is camping round after round, the point is you are exploiting a piece of the map that was not meant to be used that way which is illegal/glitching and therefor should not be allowed, pretty simple.

Just because you cant shoot through there should not mean its ok. If a person with wallhacks came in and said, well i wasn't shooting thru the wall, even tho i can see every1 i ran up to them with a huge advantage knowing were they are at without them knowing were im at...

You can peak,then shoot, and it will be the same shit because you have an advantage that the other player does not, which is illegal exploit, this is pretty simple of a glitch.

[Chikun]

Hiding there is fine, even is completely invisible. The ONLY thing that matters is that you cannot SHOOT an enemy through wall or floor since they cant see u or shoot back. U hAve to PEEK out to kill someone. And that's where the other guy has a chance to wait for that peek and retaliate. If u are too dumb not to check that spot likee u would for skywlkers above bombsites on dust2, then u suck. its the same euling as hell hunter, perfectly fine as long as theyr have to be visible when they SHOOT u. Also, u can plant elsewhere or change race to human and tele to them wvery round when not expecting... Force them out... Even better, go shadow hunter and go to the bombsite feom the bottom elevetator-window thing with the zipline across and ward the living fuck under that upper window without touching bombsite obviously. U can either kill them with wards, or hear their damage and know to expect someone there... Thats what i do, works for me.

If the rule only applies to shooting I think it should be worded better to reflect that. Give me some credit that the way it's currently worded gives my argument some validation.

[CYBER]

If the rule only applies to shooting I think it should be worded better to reflect that. Give me some credit that the way it's currently worded gives my argument some validation.Its annoying me that we have had those rules for the longest time, and every single one of those rulesIs being recently questionned. It's like u guys are intentionnally looming for exploits... But wtvr, the rule says that skywalking is allowed as long as you are visible, u can only be fully hidden if ONLYgoing through that part to a visible location (hence the "u can be fully invisible section as long as u have toGo to a visible spot for shooting "part)

[Chikun]

It's annoying me that we have had those rules for the longest time and every single one of those rules are being recently questionned. It's like you guys are intentionally looming for exploits... But whatever, the rule says that skywalking is allowed as long as you are visible. You can only be fully hidden if ONLY going through that part to a visible location (hence the "you can be fully invisible section as long as you go to a visible spot for shooting" part.)

Question everything, despise gray areas, and people who look for and abuse exploits tend to not point them out. The issue being brought up is that people aren't going through that room to get anywhere else, they're going to it instead which the rule does not specify as to the legallity of such behavior. If there were different pathways to go to and from that hidden area like a hell hunter in dust2 using the skywalking technique to traverse the bombsites quickly, that would be different. However, in the current way the rule is written it clearly states that the act of seeing an enemy with them being unable to see you (race abilities excluded) is illegal unless you are passing through; and in the case of this instance, there is no "passing through" with the second balcony as it's a destination and not a path.

[acolyte_to_jippity]

Hiding there is fine, even is completely invisible. The ONLY thing that matters is that you cannot SHOOT an enemy through wall or floor since they cant see u or shoot back. U hAve to PEEK out to kill someone. And that's where the other guy has a chance to wait for that peek and retaliate. If u are too dumb not to check that spot likee u would for skywlkers above bombsites on dust2, then u suck. its the same euling as hell hunter, perfectly fine as long as theyr have to be visible when they SHOOT u. Also, u can plant elsewhere or change race to human and tele to them wvery round when not expecting... Force them out... Even better, go shadow hunter and go to the bombsite feom the bottom elevetator-window thing with the zipline across and ward the living fuck under that upper window without touching bombsite obviously. U can either kill them with wards, or hear their damage and know to expect someone there... Thats what i do, works for me.

you can see out of the apartment though, without being seen. you can't sit there watching for people 100% out of sight. that's explicitly not allowed.

[Blackmage]

Its annoying me that we have had those rules for the longest time, and every single one of those rulesIs being recently questionned. It's like u guys are intentionnally looming for exploits... But wtvr, the rule says that skywalking is allowed as long as you are visible, u can only be fully hidden if ONLYgoing through that part to a visible location (hence the "u can be fully invisible section as long as u have toGo to a visible spot for shooting "part)

I for one, have been asking for them to be more clear and consistent since a few months after they were released, and I'm not the only one. The questioning of these rules is nothing new.

It's like people are trying to follow the rules as written. It's like we have admins and players who, at best, only read what is written on the rules and don't know the full discussion or secondary rulings. It's like people want to know what the rules actually mean, and have them written in an easily located area to stop the above two issues. It's like we have things that are ruled upon and never actually even made official. We also have issues of related, but not mentioned issues, such as someone spawning weapons to keep a door shut. Yes, people are trying to find loopholes, but things like this are trying specifically to show and then close those loopholes.

[CYBER]

I for one, have been asking for them to be more clear and consistent since a few months after they were released, and I'm not the only one. The questioning of these rules is nothing new.It's like people are trying to follow the rules as written. It's like we have admins and players who, at best, only read what is written on the rules and don't know the full discussion or secondary rulings. It's like people want to know what the rules actually mean, and have them written in an easily located area to stop the above two issues. It's like we have things that are ruled upon and never actually even made official. We also have issues of related, but not mentioned issues, such as someone spawning weapons to keep a door shut. Yes, people are trying to find loopholes, but things like this are trying specifically to show and then close those loopholes.i sense some sarcasm in there?

well, ive never had trouble with that spot being camped out personally. The same for skyboxes, i wouldnt mind if the hell huter or wtvr was just sitting there.
If they want to shoot me, they'd have to peak out and i would know, and if they just sit there not wanting to shoot or anything, then u can question them for excessive camping and delaying round if not helping doing or protectig the objective.

And again, im not tryin to defend that spot, i have personally never used it. Unlike most of u, i almost never play human or any teleport-fly races (except vaga but why the fuck would a vaga go there...), specially on that map (go ahead and try to show me playing this way, i challenge u).

So what i say is not me biased to thAT location because Im almost usually a victim of people in tha spot. Sometime we get embushed, sure. But it is usually our own lack of diligence of stubborness to play a race that is bein raped and not wanting to change.

I dnt rly care about that spot per say, but this will open up a can of worms with all skywalkig races on all maps too... Heck next thing u gonna tell me that crackhouse rooftops arent meant to be walked on bcos the original map wasnt intended for ppl flyin or teleporting there... Cant use the 'map intentions' logic because there is none in wcs.
Only the wcs races and rules matter, and they accomodate some maps already regarding wards, just to balance shit, not to fix an 'exploited high ground location...'...

Wtvr, lets see what maynard has to say about this, but personally i dnt mind ppl hiding in skyboxes or that spot , as long as they dare showing their face when they wanna shoot.
And we have admins around to see if they wall-shoot.

[Blackmage]

Well, the first part was dead serious :P The second was more of annoyance at humanity. That, and more saying "we're witnessing people doing X", and "we want to know more", rather than "we're doing X".

Also, possibly pertinent Maynard post from the past! A year 3 months ago, similar location in Italy. (http://www.ibisgaming.com/forums/showthread.php/2240-WCS-Rules?p=107071#post107071) Also pertinent, this is me questioning this rule in a similar manner :P

[Akoiah]

I never understood why the area above the cs_italy tunnel is not against the rules. Obviously the person camping up there can see through the ceiling, but the players below cannot see up through the roof. I realize the rule is, if you can see them it is fair game. But the person up top ALWAYS takes cover and reloads behind the invisible roof, allowing them to safely reload and keep an eye on the players below, which i'm pretty sure is against the rules since you cannot go anywhere where people cannot see you. Anyone want to clear this up for me? I've seen admins do it.

edit: just read the link blackmage posted. is that really the rule? i've had multiple different admins tell me you cannot hide where other people cannot see you

[CYBER]

I never understood why the area above the cs_italy tunnel is not against the rules. Obviously the person camping up there can see through the ceiling, but the players below cannot see up through the roof. I realize the rule is, if you can see them it is fair game. But the person up top ALWAYS takes cover and reloads behind the invisible roof, allowing them to safely reload and keep an eye on the players below, which i'm pretty sure is against the rules since you cannot go anywhere where people cannot see you. Anyone want to clear this up for me? I've seen admins do it.
i do it every now and then.
not against the rules.

[Akoiah]

"Going under the map, or to any place that allows you to see the enemy, but grants them 0 vision of you is not permitted unless you're passing through the area to get some where else."

~maynard

found this

---------- Post added at 09:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 PM ----------

People are definitely not "passing through". Definitely camping up there until they see someone

[HypeRNT]

"Going under the map, or to any place that allows you to see the enemy, but grants them 0 vision of you is not permitted unless you're passing through the area to get some where else."

~maynard

found this

---------- Post added at 09:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:22 PM ----------

People are definitely not "passing through". Definitely camping up there until they see someone

Yeah thats the problem, maybe i wouldn't have a problem with it if these kind of spots were limited to races that are made for skyboxing like hell hunter, making this race even more wanted to be played for this very reason.

[blackmail242]

I would just like to have you re-read Blackmages post, specifically this link http://www.ibisgaming.com/forums/showthread.php/2240-WCS-Rules?p=107071#post107071 . This is what maynard has decreed further into the rules. I understand that its not on the front page however people you should take about an hour and scroll through the thread and find these posts in there especially since most of the topics we are going over have been asked in that thread and have not been made front page material >.>

[meatspin]

I know when i play chess, I like to use a secret move that nobody knows where I place my queen outside of the board behind the opponent's back row. If they end up moving their queen, their king is toast. But, of course, it is fair since all they have to do is not move their queen, right?

It's just like when an enemy team is using some of the many powerful races on the server (which is always). I know then that there are about 30 or so races that would be disadvantageous to use. It really is a great rule set with all of this strategic variety. Also, it is the reason I play here so often.

[blackmail242]

well http://www.ibisgaming.com/forums/showthread.php/2240-WCS-Rules?p=107071#post107071 this is the closest thing I found to defending my point. This is also the last time maynard had posted in WCS rules about skywalking so >.>

[maynard]

vegas window is fine.

it does not tie in with sky-walking rules as it's not sky-walking... sky-walking is when you're in the sky-box and that window is not in the sky-box.

also, you can't shoot through the spots you can see, you have 2 go 2 the window which in turn makes you a target as well and allows the enemy 2 return fire.

I have no issue with people going in that window.