Connecticut Elementary Violence

[Carmichal]

i'll give you the assault rifles bit. but otherwise, actually think for once. meth, crack, heroine, acid...these are all illegal. by your logic, that means they don't exist. fuck that. they're all over. i could buy a gram/rock/hit/whateverthefuckyouwant of any of those within two hours. laws stop only one group of people from doing things: law-abiding citizens. criminals, by their definition, break laws. they will still obtain guns. they well still use them. only difference, they could be damn sure the person they're about to rob/kill can't defend themselves.

amen! Also the constitution lets us have militias (with guns). Thus we have the right to have assault rifles. Why? Our founding fathers hated big gov. and their military with big guns.

[Nemesis]

i'll give you the assault rifles bit. but otherwise, actually think for once. meth, crack, heroine, acid...these are all illegal. by your logic, that means they don't exist. fuck that. they're all over. i could buy a gram/rock/hit/whateverthefuckyouwant of any of those within two hours. laws stop only one group of people from doing things: law-abiding citizens. criminals, by their definition, break laws. they will still obtain guns. they well still use them. only difference, they could be damn sure the person they're about to rob/kill can't defend themselves.

Your point about it only stopping law abiding citizens would stand up if only it were true. I want you to look at all these recent shootings and tell me how many of them were conducted with legally owned guns. This one was. I understand we're going to differ on this, but no one needs to have these guns.

Criminals will still obtains guns, always. That's why street gangs running around with grenades are so dangerous these days. Oh wait, they're not? You're saying there hasn't been a single grenade killing in the United States? But grenades are legal to own? or maybe because it's difficult as shit to be approved to own them. I bet if you could walk into K-mart and pick up a 12 pack of grenades it would be a serious issue. Then why isn't it the same with guns? Guns are everywhere because it's so easy to get them. I, as a foreign citizen, was able to walk into a gun store in Michigan and they had no problems selling me a gun. does that not seem wrong to you? how easy it is?

amen! Also the constitution lets us have militias (with guns). Thus we have the right to have assault rifles. Why? Our founding fathers hated big gov. and their military with big guns.

You're an idiot. The founding fathers were worried about the fucking British they just fought landing right the fuck op on the shore and ruining America's day. The constitution was written in a different time and the second amendment was written with different threats in mind. It was also written to say blacks arn't people, so I guess you agree with that too, and women so I guess your opinion doesn't matter anyways. TO THE KITCHEN WITH YOU WENCH!

[StarsMine]

Your point about it only stopping law abiding citizens would stand up if only it were true. I want you to look at all these recent shootings and tell me how many of them were conducted with legally owned guns. This one was. I understand we're going to differ on this, but no one needs to have these guns.

Criminals will still obtains guns, always. That's why street gangs running around with grenades are so dangerous these days. Oh wait, they're not? You're saying there hasn't been a single grenade killing in the United States? But grenades are legal to own? or maybe because it's difficult as shit to be approved to own them. I bet if you could walk into K-mart and pick up a 12 pack of grenades it would be a serious issue. Then why isn't it the same with guns? Guns are everywhere because it's so easy to get them. I, as a foreign citizen, was able to walk into a gun store in Michigan and they had no problems selling me a gun. does that not seem wrong to you? how easy it is?



You're an idiot. The founding fathers were worried about the fucking British they just fought landing right the fuck op on the shore and ruining America's day. The constitution was written in a different time and the second amendment was written with different threats in mind. It was also written to say blacks arn't people, so I guess you agree with that too, and women so I guess your opinion doesn't matter anyways. TO THE KITCHEN WITH YOU WENCH!

Gang violence has gone down due to societal changes (Tupac and BIG being a big reason for that), not necessarily from gun control. And the 2nd amendment was there (as far as my knowledge tells me) so the people can rebel from a tyrannical government (like England was to the colonies).

Even though the government is not tyrannical now, and I dont see the supreme court ever letting them become that, however congress is inept and if the wrong guy becomes president all hell breaks loose. The checks and balances work well, however we have all seen obscene power grabs on both congress and the executive branch, have the checks and balances been reworked to work well in the current environment? yes, they have but the system was not immediately in place, that took the court saying what was constitutional after things happened.

I do not see what difference it makes if your a foreign citizen when getting a gun, you are a citizen and should be treated as one, foreign or not. As for you comment on the recent shootings, yes they may have been legally gotten, however things like the dark knight shootings were pre-meditated, I personally do not think having them illegal would have changed it considering how well he planed what he did.

Grenades, people just make their own when they use them. They are easy to make, take little know how, the need to buy them is only done by the government to standardize them.

And I relize I should not be debating things a 3AM as I usually, at some point some where say some thought that was only a quarter of the way of being thought all the way through.

[Nemesis]

Gang violence has gone down due to societal changes (Tupac and BIG being a big reason for that), not necessarily from gun control. And the 2nd amendment was there (as far as my knowledge tells me) so the people can rebel from a tyrannical government (like England was to the colonies).

Even though the government is not tyrannical now, and I dont see the supreme court ever letting them become that, however congress is inept and if the wrong guy becomes president all hell breaks loose. The checks and balances work well, however we have all seen obscene power grabs on both congress and the executive branch, have the checks and balances been reworked to work well in the current environment? yes, they have but the system was not immediately in place, that took the court saying what was constitutional after things happened.

I do not see what difference it makes if your a foreign citizen when getting a gun, you are a citizen and should be treated as one, foreign or not. As for you comment on the recent shootings, yes they may have been legally gotten, however things like the dark knight shootings were pre-meditated, I personally do not think having them illegal would have changed it considering how well he planed what he did.

Grenades, people just make their own when they use them. They are easy to make, take little know how, the need to buy them is only done by the government to standardize them.

You misunderstood, when I say Foreign citizen, I mean I'm Canadian. I'm not an American citizen nor do I have American documents. The reasoning for the second amendment has been changed and manipulated by whoever needs it. It was originally meant for if the British did come back to reclaim the colony, they wanted everyone to have a musket so they could throw together enough of a fighting force to push them back. Or at least give the real army time to mobilize and move to where they were needed.

Substitute gangs with anything, that was the wrong point to take out of what I said.

If the guns used in these shootings were illegal or more complicated to get, then they simply wouldn't have existed to be used in these situations. You guys should see how crazy it is to get a gun up here. And that's just for a standard hunting rifle or shotgun, the process is even longer and harder if you're talking about a concealed weapon. To get anything else, even the C8's I use at work, is impossible, we just don't let people have that stuff.

[ZERO]

I think they made it pretty clear why we have guns:

"To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."

"Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."

Lets have Pain say what I already said with fancier words:
"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand arms, like laws, discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside … Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."

But lets see some more...

"Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?"

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."


But hey what could go wrong!?
"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"

[Nemesis]

I think they made it pretty clear why we have guns:

"To disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them."

"Firearms stand next in importance to the constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence … from the hour the Pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurences and tendencies prove that to ensure peace security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable … the very atmosphere of firearms anywhere restrains evil interference — they deserve a place of honor with all that's good."

Lets have Pain say what I already said with fancier words:
"The supposed quietude of a good man allures the ruffian; while on the other hand arms, like laws, discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as property. The same balance would be preserved were all the world destitute of arms, for all would be alike; but since some will not, others dare not lay them aside … Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them."

But lets see some more...

"Are we at last brought to such humiliating and debasing degradation, that we cannot be trusted with arms for our defense? Where is the difference between having our arms in possession and under our direction and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?"

"The laws that forbid the carrying of arms are laws of such a nature. They disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes.... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man."


But hey what could go wrong!?
"This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!"

I can post un sourced quotes that lend nothing to the discussion as well if you'd like.

One day you'll be able to join the rest of the world and stop living 200 years in the past. Enjoy your slavery.

[acolyte_to_jippity]

Your point about it only stopping law abiding citizens would stand up if only it were true. I want you to look at all these recent shootings and tell me how many of them were conducted with legally owned guns. This one was. I understand we're going to differ on this, but no one needs to have these guns.

Criminals will still obtains guns, always. That's why street gangs running around with grenades are so dangerous these days. Oh wait, they're not? You're saying there hasn't been a single grenade killing in the United States? But grenades are legal to own? or maybe because it's difficult as shit to be approved to own them. I bet if you could walk into K-mart and pick up a 12 pack of grenades it would be a serious issue. Then why isn't it the same with guns? Guns are everywhere because it's so easy to get them. I, as a foreign citizen, was able to walk into a gun store in Michigan and they had no problems selling me a gun. does that not seem wrong to you? how easy it is?

to be fair, the thought of you actually being allowed into this country makes me incredibly disappointed and sad.

[phil.™]

I was shocked, and hurt when I heard this. I mean, these are children, just looking forward to the weekend, Christmas, etc.
I don't know if you guys read this article, but this woman is a true hero.

http://www.people.com/people/package...657003,00.html

I doubt many will read it, so I'll summarize it. Victoria Soto, a 1st-grade teacher at the school heard the gun shots, and immediately told her students to hide in the closets, and inside the cabinets. When the shooter came to her class, he asked where the kids were, and she said they were in gym class. He shot her, and moved to the next class. She died right there, and her kids lived.

True hero.

[Nemesis]

I was shocked, and hurt when I heard this. I mean, these are children, just looking forward to the weekend, Christmas, etc.
I don't know if you guys read this article, but this woman is a true hero.

http://www.people.com/people/package...657003,00.html

I doubt many will read it, so I'll summarize it. Victoria Soto, a 1st-grade teacher at the school heard the gun shots, and immediately told her students to hide in the closets, and inside the cabinets. When the shooter came to her class, he asked where the kids were, and she said they were in gym class. He shot her, and moved to the next class. She died right there, and her kids lived.

True hero.

All well and good but what about the guys who were actually in the gym? Short end of the stick on that one.

[Erdenay]

I've stayed out of this thread for the longest time as I didn't have anything to say that I had not said. However, just wanted to quickly point out 2 things:

I) You may want to notice how much this thread has been derailed and just move the discussion to another one if you really want to honour those people?

II) I can't believe I agree with Nemesis on a serious issue, but I pretty much agree with a vast majority of things he wrote. I highly recommend looking into statistics and testimonies in some other countries (most of European countries) where guns are highly restricted and where's barely any violence or shootings (in fact, any incidents like that where you have a lot of loss of lives).