Symbiotic 9/17/11 12:05 AM ET, STEAM_0:0:19432712

[Xerenix]

After looking through all 3 demos, i see no indication of any hacking at all. His aim is too smooth for it to be aimbot and during the symwalls demo, he sprays through the smoke killing one guy then reloads, when he has just finished reloading and start spraying again, a enemy shows up in the smoke.

I'll have to vote no on this one.

[brett friggin favre]

After looking through all 3 demos, i see no indication of any hacking at all. His aim is too smooth for it to be aimbot and during the symwalls demo, he sprays through the smoke killing one guy then reloads, when he has just finished reloading and start spraying again, a enemy shows up in the smoke.

I'll have to vote no on this one.

Watch the symwalls demo again with r_drawothermodels 2. Note the timing of his first spray, right before he dies. I suspect his wallhacks work like r_drawothermodels 2. he uses that jutting out wall to see when players run into the smoke. He could start spraying at any time but he looks through the jutting wall to see when players are going to be in the target area. He also does that for the second kill he gets. Also with the second kill, I don't think he sprays a FULL clip into the smoke. Most of one for sure, but if its truly random spray you wouldn't just stop after you get a kill, you'd finish the clip to see if you could get another. On top of those, note how he knows where the player down the hall is. Of course it could be on his radar because his teammate had just seen him, so I can't say anything for sure on that one. Then note how he prefires the human down the other hall towards t-spawn. He knows the player is there. If you watch without drawothermodels, you can't see the guy there, he just prefires him. I know that looking into that hall is a tough spot. I'm most on guard for guys who pop out right in front of me, hiding behind the doors, as a good player would be. He doesn't even check corners. He just goes straight to the door to T spawn and starts shooting. If he was playing SMART, he'd see that for the moment nobody is in the hallway and move into it, keeping an eye on the doors to T spawn. He'd move in there so an enemy didn't surprise him from the side but instead of doing any of that, he KNOWS the player is right behind the doors and prefires him. Also you'd want to run into the hallway because at this point, the enemy has the jump on you. When you shoot, you let him know where you are, and it's up to him when to pop out and take you out. He gives the opponent an advantage which is why he dies. An experienced player would run into the hallway and try to get the jump on the enemy, catching him by surprise, not shooting at a wall til he comes out. ON TOP OF THAT, back to the spraying through smoke, HE NEVER CHECKS HIS REAR OR HIS FLANK. A player as "experienced" as him would know that while he's reloading, he should use that time to check his surroundings for enemies trying to flank him, but he remains fixated on the wall in front of him. Why? Because he can see through them.

[Xerenix]

Watch the symwalls demo again with r_drawothermodels 2. Note the timing of his first spray, right before he dies. I suspect his wallhacks work like r_drawothermodels 2. he uses that jutting out wall to see when players run into the smoke. He could start spraying at any time but he looks through the jutting wall to see when players are going to be in the target area. He also does that for the second kill he gets. Also with the second kill, I don't think he sprays a FULL clip into the smoke. Most of one for sure, but if its truly random spray you wouldn't just stop after you get a kill, you'd finish the clip to see if you could get another. On top of those, note how he knows where the player down the hall is. Of course it could be on his radar because his teammate had just seen him, so I can't say anything for sure on that one. Then note how he prefires the human down the other hall towards t-spawn. He knows the player is there. If you watch without drawothermodels, you can't see the guy there, he just prefires him. I know that looking into that hall is a tough spot. I'm most on guard for guys who pop out right in front of me, hiding behind the doors, as a good player would be. He doesn't even check corners. He just goes straight to the door to T spawn and starts shooting. If he was playing SMART, he'd see that for the moment nobody is in the hallway and move into it, keeping an eye on the doors to T spawn. He'd move in there so an enemy didn't surprise him from the side but instead of doing any of that, he KNOWS the player is right behind the doors and prefires him. Also you'd want to run into the hallway because at this point, the enemy has the jump on you. When you shoot, you let him know where you are, and it's up to him when to pop out and take you out. He gives the opponent an advantage which is why he dies. An experienced player would run into the hallway and try to get the jump on the enemy, catching him by surprise, not shooting at a wall til he comes out. ON TOP OF THAT, back to the spraying through smoke, HE NEVER CHECKS HIS REAR OR HIS FLANK. A player as "experienced" as him would know that while he's reloading, he should use that time to check his surroundings for enemies trying to flank him, but he remains fixated on the wall in front of him. Why? Because he can see through them.

After watching the demo a few times more, i'm still not convinced he's wallhacking.

Here is what i see happens:

1. Symbotic gets killed by a guy in the smoke then respawns.

2. Symbotic sprays into the smoke and kills the first guy then reloads while the second guy runs next to the smoke shooting.

3. When Symbotic finish reloading, he sprays into the smoke and kills the second guy then he reloads again after using up his bullets, when he finish reloading the smoke disappears and he walks forward.

4. When nearing the corner, you can hear the third guy in the hall shooting with his afk and symbotic know he's there because of it and then kills him.

5. Symbotic go into the middle of the hall then turns around while his teammate gets killed in the second hall by a fouth guy which makes both the teammate and enemy show up on the radar where they were.

6. Symbotic prefires into the second hall then the fourth guy teleports while symbotic keeps spraying near door to T spawn not seeing the fourth guy comming up right next to him.

Nothing in it looks like wallhack to me.

[brett friggin favre]

5. Symbotic go into the middle of the hall then turns around while his teammate gets killed in the second hall by a fouth guy which makes both the teammate and enemy show up on the radar where they were.

6. Symbotic prefires into the second hall then the fourth guy teleports while symbotic keeps spraying near door to T spawn not seeing the fourth guy comming up right next to him.

Nothing in it looks like wallhack to me.

There are 5 seconds between when his teammate is killed and when he shoots down the hallway. 5 seconds is plenty enough time for a player to move to a different location. Being "experienced" and having already wasted many rounds through the smoke, he should be conserving ammo at this point but no, he throws a bunch of rounds at where a terrorist was 5 seconds ago. As I explained previously, that's not legitimate strategy. An experienced player would try to get into the enemy's face and take him by surprise, not give away his location and waste ammo because he THINKS the guy might still be there after 5 seconds. I woke up this morning thinking "ya know what, maybe he's just lucky." but I looked at the demo again and I can still see clear as day that he has wallhacks. After 10 years experience in this game, I have developed a pretty good sense for when something's not legit. I know how to use radar. I know how players work and I know when to look where. His patterns, not just what he does but also what he doesn't do, do not show any logic until you turn r_drawothermodels 2 on. The fact that what you see in that short demo is a common occurance with him, the fact that he times his sprays perfectly to when people are coming around corners through smoke, the fact that he's willing to throw rounds into a corner 5 seconds after he last knew someone was there...these are things the most experienced player would not and could not do. Experienced players don't waste rounds, they anticipate where people will be but don't shoot til they see the enemy so the enemy doesn't know where they are. If he uses experience as an excuse, that just lets me know that this is even more BS than I originally thought because his behavior patterns are that of the 4 year old son of a taliban agent who just got his hands on a gun for the first time, not someone who has been playing CS for 6+ years.

[Symbiotic]

these are things the most experienced player would not and could not do

I haven't been playing CS consistently for the past decade; I played CS for 3 years then I played CZ for about 4 years and took a 3 year break and haven't touched a cs game since I just recently got CSS and have just recently been playing it. I only have 23 hours logged on my account and this WCS server has been the only server I've been playing on.
*edit* When I used to play CZ I only played on a hook mod server which is why I spray and "prefire" and do not pay heed to getting flanked. Since I'm used to just hooking away (or relying on super powers in this case).

An experienced player would try to get into the enemy's face and take him by surprise, not give away his location and waste ammo because he THINKS the guy might still be there after 5 seconds.

Typically, when people are camping on cs_office they do just that camp and stay in the same positions in that hallway. If you watch the full demo I prefire on most of the walls when I know there is somewhere there (due to footsteps/gunfire)

he fact that what you see in that short demo is a common occurance with him, the fact that he times his sprays perfectly to when people are coming around corners through smoke, the fact that he's willing to throw rounds into a corner 5 seconds after he last knew someone was there...these are things the most experienced player would not and could not do. Experienced players don't waste rounds, they anticipate where people will be but don't shoot til they see the enemy so the enemy doesn't know where they are. If he uses experience as an excuse, that just lets me know that this is even more BS than I originally thought because his behavior patterns are that of the 4 year old son of a taliban agent who just got his hands on a gun for the first time, not someone who has been playing CS for 6+ years.

so you are proving I'm a noob doesn't mean I hack

[Xerenix]

Well i've said what my opinion is and that is that it's not wallhack.


You'll have to wait for a second upper admin or a clan member decide.

[Penis シ]

I watched the demos because this is a trendy topic.


I'll start by saying that I don't believe the symwalls demo shows anything necessary for a conviction.


So I wanted to see what led up to that situation and watched the sourcetv demo.


In that, I saw plenty of fishy behavior. There were two moments that occurred to me and brett is checking out the second one. But the first one happens shortly after 11000 tick.


In this instance, you have a vagabond teleporting into the area. Sym sees him right off and that's all fine, until what happens during the ensuing shootout. Sym is looking out the window and instead of moving forward into the window, he strafes toward the other window, noobish move but nothing, until you see where his crosshairs are for the entire thing. It looks to me like a walltrace to the point where he shoots before he even has a vantage on the guy. Everyone has shot at boxes where they saw someone disappear but this is something special, 2 people in motion and a minimap that isn't tracking the movement with a perfect walltrace.

I think that if we look into the sourcetv demo, we may find more than the symwalls demo has to offer.