The Petition to ban Slipstream from the forums.

[Fluffy Frufflebottoms]

The problem you seem to be having, Fluffy, is the "at the expense of other players". How does, to quote Aco, having a tommy gun, change the game for anyone else? It's within the rules of the game, doesn't change any gameplay, just is a personal choice. I can get used to the looks of a tommy gun just as easily as a p90. The sounds as well. The ability to change skins is inherent to the game too. Where is it any different from spending time to learn maps, or just get better at the game? We can all do it.

When you play a game, you do things based on how it will appear to the people you play against. You occupy a dark space because you know that you'll appear in a way that makes it difficult for the opposition to see you. You choose a certain uniform because it fits the surroundings. You choose whether or not to take a shot from distance with a quiet weapon based on how easily the person will be able to figure out where you're shooting from. These are the things that make the game more than just W and mouse1. You need to be able to how you appear in the game world. That flies out the window if your scout sounds like a high powered rifle, if your dark uniform is actually bright pink, or, less egregious but equally revealing, some kind of "cool" street camouflage.

Some skins are more beneficial than others, some models and sounds give you more of an advantage than others. None of them are part of the game, but rather alterations to the game, and as far as I can tell, every other modification to the game that may confer an unfair advantage is considered cheating, and a bannable offense. This simply would not be a problem to anyone if people played the game as it is, and I don't believe that anyone's desire to have a Tommy gun in place of the P90 supersedes the importance of preventing people from abusing the opportunity to gain an unfair advantage by modifying game files.

If you've never watched two people who are playing at the same table on the same board but two different games, I suggest you go watch professionals playing against casual gamers in one of a variety of games. They often abide by two different rulesets, which means they ARE playing different games. The one who plays by the rules "only use the map as the creator intended" vs the "abuse everything within the confines of the rules" ARE playing two different games.

This is silly, Blackmage. They are not playing different games. One is merely playing the game better than the other. This philosophical "you're better so you're playing a different game" argument doesn't really have a place in a debate of whether or not to allow people to, not philosophically, but literally play the same game with different content.

[acolyte_to_jippity]

...

you do realize that changing the sound on things doesn't actually do much, right?

i mean, the sound of a high powered rifle for a scout will sound just as loud from across the map as the default scout sound. unless you ranp the sound up to incredibly high amplitudes, then it all scales identically.

and, that you don't have to use skins if you don't want to.

you seem to just be getting pissy because some people like making their game look nicer, and you don't. but instead of just manning up, you're deciding to throw a tantrum and try to make other people change. why don't you just get over yourself?


alternatively, if you don't want people to use skins, find yourself a pure server and get the fuck out.

[Fluffy Frufflebottoms]

Calm down, Acolyte.

[StarsMine]

I find fluffy has some very damn valid points
If I pick a uniform to be able to be less visible on a certain map, someone turning me bright pink is compleatly unfair.
If I silence an M4 to be able to sneak around easier and someone ups the amplitude of the sound the gun makes, that's absolute bullshit. Its one thing to abuse mechanics, its another to change them.
Now I relize most people who use skins dont do these things, but there are those who do and they are most likely way harder to catch then wallers ever will be.

[SCRIBBLE]

Wow two opinions and one stoops to the level of personal insult, it's funny how that happens Acolyte.

Fluffy has a decent argument. I have always thought of the rule being in place so that we can punish people if need be. Punishment may not always be necessary but a red/blue or bright pink skin would be blatant infraction. Customizing the game has always been part of CS and that's why pure servers exist so you can play with no advantage or handicap.

Fluffy has obviously realized this and still continues to play in IBIS servers.

[acolyte_to_jippity]

Fluffy has obviously realized this and still continues to play in IBIS servers.

and complain. just like kavinsky. though unlike kav, fruffles is very good at cs. obviously what he sees as a rampant skinning problem is not really hurting him. someone like me, however, who blows ass, should (in theory) be blaming skinning for my shitty play. however, i'm not. if you want to get right down to it, i think some of my skins hurt me, since a few of them are much softer (not quieter, but just less of a distinct CRACK or BANG) and can be more difficult to pick up on in-game.

i'm sorry if i sounded a bit...ah fuck it. i can't lie like that.

[SCRIBBLE]

I have only seen what may be construed as complaints in this thread which ended up being a discussion about slipstream's skins.

If he was actually complaining about the status of IBIS servers regarding custom skins, would this not be the appropriate place to do so? I'd like to think that if I had a problem and I rationally presented my argument it would be at least respectfully put down.

There must be something I'm missing based off your demasculinization ("manning up") of Fluffy and your frustration with what he is saying. Either that or you reading too deeply into what he has been saying.

[Blackmage]

It's kind of funny how you call my argument philosophy based, and therefore invalid, and then go on and use your own philosophies for why you are right.

Philosophy #1: "you do things based on how it will appear to the people you play against."

Yes, people will play to get an advantage. Some will go different lengths. They may do what your philosophy says is fine, or they can try something else, be it optimizing game settings, computer settings, skins, hacks, abusing glitches, ect.

Philosophy #1b: "These are the things that make the game more than just W and mouse1."

So are: Skins, Mods, Maps, hacks, map knowledge, ect.

Philosophy #2: "You need to be able to how you appear in the game world."

You won't always know this anyway. Welcome to: lag, buggy graphics cards, glitches, settings changes, colour blind people, monitors. If you're at the level where you NEED this, you shouldn't be pubbing or playing casual servers. It's part of why there ARE pure servers. Since this is NOT a pure server, you NEED to realize, you WON'T know how you show up on other's screen. Heck, you won't know if they have tracers or not when you shoot.

Philosophy #3:

Some skins are more beneficial than others, some models and sounds give you more of an advantage than others. None of them are part of the game, but rather alterations to the game, and as far as I can tell, every other modification to the game that may confer an unfair advantage is considered cheating, and a bannable offense. This simply would not be a problem to anyone if people played the game as it is, and I don't believe that anyone's desire to have a Tommy gun in place of the P90 supersedes the importance of preventing people from abusing the opportunity to gain an unfair advantage by modifying game files.

The most simple thing that proves that wrong: rebinding ANY keys. We can all do it, it changes the gameplay for us, and is NOT bannable. In some cases, we can't tell if they are scripting to do things, or just good. We can allow people to modify things, and trust that they aren't abusing anything.

Philosophy #4: "One is merely playing the game better than the other."

Better than the other? Righto, silly AND subjective. As for my philosophy, most people would require all players to be playing by the same ruleset for it to be the same game. Even if they are not enforced, people will give themselves rules, which change the gameplay, which changes the game itself for that player. Ergo, different game.

Now to use (I lost) The Game for an example. It has 3 rules. Yet many people play it with additional rules, or change the rules. Some people believe they've won the game. Some people will define the time you have between losses different. There are many possible variations, yet are they playing the same game? Yes and no. The general idea is the same, the board is the same, we're all playing it at the same time, but it is NOT the same game. Same idea for backyard sports, especially if rules are not made clear beforehand.

Finally, if my philosophy on gameplay is extraneous, why are yours any better?

General Comment:

Funny to realize that if Fluffy didn't have a problem with a comparison, this part of the conversation probably wouldn't have started.

[StarsMine]

and complain. just like kavinsky. though unlike kav, fruffles is very good at cs. obviously what he sees as a rampant skinning problem is not really hurting him. someone like me, however, who blows ass, should (in theory) be blaming skinning for my shitty play. however, i'm not. if you want to get right down to it, i think some of my skins hurt me, since a few of them are much softer (not quieter, but just less of a distinct CRACK or BANG) and can be more difficult to pick up on in-game.

i'm sorry if i sounded a bit...ah fuck it. i can't lie like that.

I dont see fluffy complaining though :/ like scribble I dont know how it could be construed as such.

[devour]

you guys turned counterforces into dungeons and dragons in a single thread.

Philosophy #1: "you do things based on how it will appear to the people you play against."

Yes, people will play to get an advantage. Some will go different lengths. They may do what your philosophy says is fine, or they can try something else, be it optimizing game settings, computer settings, skins, hacks, abusing glitches, ect.

"game sense" is not the same as "philosophy", black mage.

also:

I'd vote walls are probably about as easy to abuse, and probably more useful. Both of them, you just have to make sure not to look at things you shouldn't normally be seeing. It's the easier to deal with, though.

if you want to get into specifics, a radar hack is much more difficult to expose than a wall hack AND are more common.

this all started because of a mere suggestion, which I believe has been brought up in the past with a similar debate (butthurt fest in this case). let's all simmer down and enjoy our rocket launcher awp skins and customized sound packs, so we can hear someone when they're holding their walk key.

ps: how is editing ones config files (which are just console commands in a text file format) equivalent to customizing skins and sounds? where's the comparison? apples and oranges my friends