Next time someone bitches about impalance

[Blackmage]

" It is somewhat useful, yes, but can you compare to most of other ultimates around?"

Sure: Most races are defined by their ulti, Raps is one of them. Some are supporting their others skills (Warden) or are off the wall with the rest of the character (Blood Mage).

Also, "that KDR means jack" = "that KDR means jack shit". Not talking about the race.

" Raps crit < setting a person on fire"

I might accept setting on fire + weapon drop. Just setting on fire only happens (just over) 1 time in 10 more often. (22 vs 35) If you feel that slowing them so you might kill them is better than straight up killing them, with such a low difference on proc rates, then we're going to have to just agree to disagree.

[StarsMine]

The fire is a more deffensive skill then the crit
They are slow, they cant see for shit, taking extra damage, and more often then not weaponless.

Flame preds are fast and hard to spot, and when you do spot them, they are not killed as easily has a rap with 100 hp. When the flame pred fails at its job to kill, they are usually close enough that their ultimate blows the guy up.

A rapescallion who fails to crit is a dead rapescallion, they are easy to spot, they cant run away and use their ultimate, it would just clue the enemy into where they are. A flame pred, or a vagalion that fails to crit has skills to back itself up on to either go for the second knife or get the fuck out of there.

There is no way that you can tell me the rapescallion is balanced. They arnt a defensive class, they have no defensive skill. they are not an offensive class, they cant take a bullet, or attack from a distance. they are not an asset to the team, with no team healing, team reviving, or wards to save a teammate, or prevent a respawn on the other side.

Being able to pull off a positive KDR does not mean its balanced, you can get a positive kdr in GG by going knife only, that does not mean it is as useful as an m4a1 or a shotgun.

[Erdenay]

Sure: Most races are defined by their ulti, Raps is one of them. Some are supporting their others skills (Warden) or are off the wall with the rest of the character (Blood Mage).

I completely disagree with this statement. Both warden's and bloodmage's ultimates are very useful (especially BM's) whereas rapscalion's ultimate isn't nowhere near as useful. The only ultimate that is worse than raps, IMHO, is undead's because that rarely procs and even then it's not as strong as flame predator's.

Also, "that KDR means jack" = "that KDR means jack shit". Not talking about the race.

My bad for misunderstanding, but even with changed understanding what you said, I still disagree. Kdr is a fairly good indication of how strong the race is compared to others and while it's definitely not perfect and has plenty of flaws, it should not be completely disregarded I.E. jack shit.

" Raps crit < setting a person on fire"

I might accept setting on fire + weapon drop. Just setting on fire only happens (just over) 1 time in 10 more often. (22 vs 35) If you feel that slowing them so you might kill them is better than straight up killing them, with such a low difference on proc rates, then we're going to have to just agree to disagree.

The reason for that is that rapscalion's crits just above once out of 5 while flame pred's hits more than once in 3 hits - that's a huge difference when it comes to knifing. Furthermore, if rapscalion does not get a backstab or a crit, it's more likely dead than not while flame pred has much better chances to still kill the person or at least retreat and try again. So, by the looks of it, we agree to disagree here.

[Masskid]

My bad for misunderstanding, but even with changed understanding what you said, I still disagree. Kdr is a fairly good indication of how strong the race is compared to others and while it's definitely not perfect and has plenty of flaws, it should not be completely disregarded I.E. jack shit.

Deathfire.... playing vaga... if i was new and saw him playing vaga i would think that race sucks.... so imo kdr is not a good judge. Kdr is better at judging the individual player

[Blackmage]

**Is there some reason that i havent seen it a decent amount?** Because people don't like to.

**yes my 400 hours outmatches any of yours not only by skill, experience and anything else you wana throw in there that makes me worth more then u as a player alone, this can be proved by a number of things, stats are one of them, so that statement is retarded.** Skill? If you're using the in game stat, sure. If you're using the actual meaning of that stat, I ask you, how would you know? If you're stalking me, I MIGHT accept that statement. Experience, again, if you're using the in game stat, maybe, I haven't compared. Real experience, I again ask, are you stalking me or just talking through your ass? I'm going to just throw this out here: Math skills. I obviously win there, since I know, 400 < 500 AND 400 < 900. Given your LOGIC was that TIME ALONE mattered... How was THIS logic of your NOT a fail, as I suggested? Some other things: knowledge of how Ibis works. Knowledge of how this server was before Orange Box.

**what is this response to? im lazy ? huh? im not even sure how to respond to this useless response** Lazy - 1. averse or disinclined to work, activity, or exertion; indolent. You know, declaring something underpowered without thinking. Since this is the case, I guess I'll list them out so you don't have to try to think of them yourself. For example, the odd reason I listed in the previous post. "It can mean a number of things, including "knows how the server works". It also has to do with when it was added." Which is something you REALLY should know if you have experience in other servers. Crit blade doesn't need to crit often, as it crits dead. The ult has ways to use the fact that you list there. These are not reasons to call something underpowered, these are reasons you don't like it.

**you really have nothing to say anymore do you? IT SHOWS THAT ITS WEAK, hence kdr showing people cant get kills with it, hence why they dont wana play it, hence why no1 plays it in the server** KDR does not mean it's weak. It means that it's not played, and the players who CAN get kills with it don't bother because they have races they'd rather play. KDR for a race is the culmination of all players. That list of hences was fail. Let me show you reality: Low KDR shows that it has low KDR. Hence, showing that the players that play it don't get kills with it. People see this, and hear the whining, and aren't willing to change their playstyle, hence not wanting to play it. This, plus those people who could wanting to play something else are why no one plays it in the server, and probably why it has low KDR. There, I corrected your fallacious train of logic.

**thats not the point, lace kills it but its other skills help out, as were rap has nothing besides praying the crit goes off** As you ignored half the point, you seem to know you're beaten here, so I'll let it sit.

**u mean rap right?** No, I have no issues seeing FP or Raps. Just because you have issues seeing FP does not mean others do. Just because you can see Raps does not mean others can. Hint: you are not alone in your bubble.

**really? well now you clearly have nothing to respond anymore that is of any use.** Oh, you're admitting you just can't do anything correctly? Oh, that would make life easier.

**im sorry, my credentials when it comes to FPS are 2x combined of ALMOST anyone else from your clan, unless you have some cevo-p players in other fps games or tgl/cg/cal/ or hell even twl, and yes esea and lan's aswell, that is facts and not opinion btw** Ok, now I'm sure of it. You REALLY don't know how things work in this place, I'm not in a clan. Oh, and that you enjoy stalking people. Also, given you are giving nothing but OPINIONS, I'm not sure you know what "facts" or "opinions" mean. All those things you listed may be relevant to you, but really, mean nothing to me. I care not about any of those groups. Being a member of them is no more relevant to credentials (beyond the correct statement of "I've been playing") than saying "I joined my local playboy bunny's guild". I do like how he only posts names of man's clubs, not that he's in them, and that he posts nothing about number, sub-genres, length or anything. He "suggests" he plays at a high level, and declares most(heh) of us don't. Oh, if one of those is actually a studio that makes FPS, I'm sorry I doubted you posted any useful credentials.

**once again you are going of your own opinions, not many things i say are rude or out of line to people who arent asses to me first, please find those posts of yours and il find you some that are before that, like i said your OPINION not fact so please treat it as that.** Those were all facts. You ARE snarky and rude. You ARE arrogant, as you so kindly proved in the prior statement again. You CAN'T take hints. You are obviously not well versed in the forums, because all three of those statements ARE links to just that, though like I said for arrogant, look above.

**pretend? i feel like you are confused or lost, saying rap is a bad race has nothing to do with pretending, its a FACT based of stats,playing time, and peoples responses to it, its honestly as simple as that so you need to hop on board or let it go** For all your claims of facts vs opinions, I like how your fact is actually an opinion. Do you SERIOUSLY not know what those words mean? You even acknowledge that it was an opinion, starting the word after the opinion is finished being stated. As for pretending please reread what was written. I was responding to:

why the fuck would i give a shit on who likes me on a forum trololol, i have absolutely 0 problems in the server when im playing and have plenty of people on my friends list wcs admins included, so once again your OPINION is just YOUR OPINION and lets keep it at that.

When you assume, ass out of u.

The fire is a more deffensive skill then the crit
They are slow, they cant see for shit, taking extra damage, and more often then not weaponless.

I won't deny the first or the second. The third depends on the player. The fourth can matter against damaged enemies, I admit. The last, perhaps my math is wrong, but isn't the chance of both triggering 14%? Not sure how this is often at all.

Flame preds are fast and hard to spot, and when you do spot them, they are not killed as easily has a rap with 100 hp. When the flame pred fails at its job to kill, they are usually close enough that their ultimate blows the guy up.

I can say the same for Raps on the first. I agreed with the second already, two extra hits ARE required. If they are close enough to damage, yes, they are close enough to explode. So they have a 40% to trigger, and is ignored by lace. Various races also will not be killed, and this only works if you kept them close enough.

A rapescallion who fails to crit is a dead rapescallion, they are easy to spot, they cant run away and use their ultimate, it would just clue the enemy into where they are. A flame pred, or a vagalion that fails to crit has skills to back itself up on to either go for the second knife or get the fuck out of there.

Er, explain how a FP can escape if a Raps can't if neither procced a skill? Failing that, Vaga, if Raps is supposed to be in it's ulti. Not saying you're wrong, I just don't follow this one.

There is no way that you can tell me the rapescallion is balanced. They arnt a defensive class, they have no defensive skill. they are not an offensive class, they cant take a bullet, or attack from a distance. they are not an asset to the team, with no team healing, team reviving, or wards to save a teammate, or prevent a respawn on the other side.

Culmination of skills, and the ultimate lead to it being a defensive class. As for asset, again, baiting and recon. I've said this before, so more agree to disagree.

Being able to pull off a positive KDR does not mean its balanced, you can get a positive kdr in GG by going knife only, that does not mean it is as useful as an m4a1 or a shotgun.

In comparison, not being able to pull off a positive KDR does not mean it's not balanced or useful. The fact that the vaga goes 60-2 doesn't mean anything if they can't win a round. Going 0-12 doesn't mean you're useless if you're being bait and recon. Going 0-32 doesn't mean the race is bad if it's being run by a bad player.

One problem for Raps(and somewhat vagas, sometimes FP) KDR in this WCS: the number of revivers.

Erdenay: Can I just ask you to read: what I said at the start carefully, your response, then your first sentence of your next response. Hint: I never said anything about the USEFULNESS of any of those. As for undead ulti... I didn't realize 70% wasn't that often.

KDR, by itself, doesn't mean anything. It is too easily padded, too easily abused, doesn't show anything but last hits and deaths. Doesn't show if you got respawned 15 times in wards. Doesn't show that you killed 30 AFKs a round for 30 rounds. It doesn't show that Player A can get 100 kills, 0 deaths over a night because he plays with noobs. What I should have said was: KDR without any reference shows jack.

"The reason for that is that rapscalion's crits just above once out of 5 while flame pred's hits more than once in 3 hits - that's a huge difference when it comes to knifing. Furthermore, if rapscalion does not get a backstab or a crit, it's more likely dead than not while flame pred has much better chances to still kill the person or at least retreat and try again. So, by the looks of it, we agree to disagree here."

It's actually higher than 1 in 5. It's close to... 22 in 100... or 1 in 4.5454. Stats and low numbers and all that. But, as I asked Stars, how is FP more likely to do either of those in the case of no proccing? Are we citing the 40 extra HP or is it something else? If it's the other 40 HP, I counter: Raps is supposed to have the surprise, so will be shot at less on the approach.

Masskid: I dare ANYONE to judge me by KDR :P

Looking at this response, Maths. Heh.

Also, heh, Cyber. We've had 2 races so far in the spotlight, and that's WITHOUT a stickey.

Edit, as a late aside, for those arguing to increase the power of Raps, how much would you feel changing his invis to true invis, same levels as FP, would increase his power? Would it be enough? Just curious.

[>>>Shots<<<]

Deathfire.... playing vaga... if i was new and saw him playing vaga i would think that race sucks.... so imo kdr is not a good judge. Kdr is better at judging the individual player

Deathfire....Playing Rapscallion... what do you think his KDR will be? KDR shows a mixture of skill+strength of race. When you play a powerful race (e.g., vegabond, molecule, Jack) you will certainly get better KDR compared to playing rapscallion, undead scourage.

[Blackmage]

I can deny anything I want! I deny you exist! Good day figment of my imagination!

I may make a serious response, I just wanted to say that :P As for me, my mind has gone.

Edit: Aww, you removed the "you can't deny" comment. Oh well.

[Erdenay]

Deathfire.... playing vaga... if i was new and saw him playing vaga i would think that race sucks.... so imo kdr is not a good judge. Kdr is better at judging the individual player

Races kdr evens out somewhat, although that's one of the reasons I've mentioned it's not that good of a mark. If we'd take human for example - it's kdr is underrated due to all bad people, but it's still one of the better ones. Thus, while it's not perfect, it does show a thing or two.

Erdenay: Can I just ask you to read: what I said at the start carefully, your response, then your first sentence of your next response. Hint: I never said anything about the USEFULNESS of any of those. As for undead ulti... I didn't realize 70% wasn't that often.

KDR, by itself, doesn't mean anything. It is too easily padded, too easily abused, doesn't show anything but last hits and deaths. Doesn't show if you got respawned 15 times in wards. Doesn't show that you killed 30 AFKs a round for 30 rounds. It doesn't show that Player A can get 100 kills, 0 deaths over a night because he plays with noobs. What I should have said was: KDR without any reference shows jack.

"The reason for that is that rapscalion's crits just above once out of 5 while flame pred's hits more than once in 3 hits - that's a huge difference when it comes to knifing. Furthermore, if rapscalion does not get a backstab or a crit, it's more likely dead than not while flame pred has much better chances to still kill the person or at least retreat and try again. So, by the looks of it, we agree to disagree here."

It's actually higher than 1 in 5. It's close to... 22 in 100... or 1 in 4.5454. Stats and low numbers and all that. But, as I asked Stars, how is FP more likely to do either of those in the case of no proccing? Are we citing the 40 extra HP or is it something else? If it's the other 40 HP, I counter: Raps is supposed to have the surprise, so will be shot at less on the approach.

My bad for misreading, but what I was trying to point out that raps is not really that well defined by its ultimate - as I've mentioned, I barely ever use it when I play as normally it goes better without it.

It doesn't mean everything, but it does represent a few things. Yes, it's nowhere near perfect and I've seen it abused plenty of times, but it is slightly different for races than for people - all of these races have been played for a long, long, long time and experienced everything. Remember that kdr is counted from all the deaths and kills that have been taken, so while they're nowhere near perfect, they have some truth in them... Furthermore, notice the gap of the kdr between rapscalion and the next "worst" race.

Just barely. Yes, I realize that - I've finished a few calc classes and I'm an economics major, so that should already tell you that I know a thing or two, but now you're just trying to point out anything rather than addressing the actual point. The combination of skills for FP is just much better than raps - and they're actually both surprise races... If you do a heads on approach with FP and not try to be sneaky and make a surprise, you're playing it wrong. Both these races are ambush races - it's just that one of them is better at it and has much better chances of doing well with... And that's not raps.

Edit, as a late aside, for those arguing to increase the power of Raps, how much would you feel changing his invis to true invis, same levels as FP, would increase his power? Would it be enough? Just curious.

I'm actually not arguing for anything (maybe ulti fix would be nice, but that's all) - I'm just trying to point out that it's underpowered, unbalanced and it fits our servers quite well :P

brilliant thread is made about balance, or more precisely, imbalance, and its value in gaming.

people make 6 pages of replies about a race being imbalanced.

i believe the point has been lost. sadly.

No, it was not lost. The only reason why I started to chim in is because some people said rapscalion wasn't weaker than other races. I don't mind that race and I am not arguing for any changes. Besides, to quite you yourself: "This is internet, what else did you expect?"