Next time someone bitches about impalance

[CYBER]

I agree with this video! It shows vagabond is a HUGE issue :P Vagabond fails cyclical (im)balance hardcore, as well as being far from subtle. Not saying it's broken, but (according to the video) unbalanced. But other than that, I agree, this applies for our server fairly well. There are some things that aren't accurate for our server, such as cyclical imbalance needing players who care. But between meta shifting every map, and looking at Spidey pre- and post- speed correction, we've got it good.On a side note, I really need to add Extra Credits back to my RSS. What am I doing 3 weeks behind...

How does vagabond fail the perfect cyclical imbalace? Why do u think there's shadow hunter, jack, human, athena , void , LACE,... When u have a whole fucking team of shadow hunters and ofhers with laces, vagabond means shit.same for vagalion. Im not the best at that shit but i like to consider myself one of the few people who truely unlocked the race's highest potential, and i tell u that i would easily jump off the race if there was a combo of this dedicated to fuck u up...just saying, wcs is fucking fine. I agree rapscallion is on the very low end. If its blade would proc as much as vagalion, and the racw ultimate NOT showing through walls, then it would go on par for very loved races

[maynard]

what I took from the video is that unless the entire community is bitching about the same thing, stfu, and figure out why you're failing... and even if the entire community is bitching.... STFU and figure out why you're failing. there is ALWAYS a counter.


vega is not a problem in even the slightest lol... other than it's glitches. in terms of being a balanced race, it's beautiful.

[Blackmage]

When does it ever become played less because of other races? Does it seem weaker? Does it cause almost everyone to complain about it's ultimate? What CAN'T it do?

Does it have counters? Yes. Do any of these lead to any form of a Cycle? Please tell me how it does anything related to a cyclic balancing act.

Maynard: if that's seriously what you took from the video, watch it again. It says the exact OPPOSITE things, actually. Well, other than the "try to figure out counters". (What I mean is that, if most of the community is complaining, it doesn't mean you need to find a counter, if it's going on for extended periods of time. What I said for Vaga is above here.)

Edit: Some more thoughts. Having a counter does not mean it's balanced. Just look at Magic, JaceTMS, or Tarmagoyf for examples. Having a counter means you're not invincible, not that you're balanced. You can "counter" most hacks with Molly bubble, and should be able to with Shadow Hunter, but I digress. Does that means hacking is actually balanced? One other thing that often shows something is unbalanced is the requirement of either having or being able to deal with something, at all times. Sound like a certain race to you?

Also, some of those "counters" you list are VERY situational. Lace only stops certain aspects of it. Ultimates stop it if they don't have a lace, something they often have due to not needing other items/weapons. Shadow hunter has the exact same problem of laces. You need to be close. As for a group dedicated to taking out a single opponent, and not having to worry about the rest of the team, and doing well enough that this is even feasible, and being able to pull it off. I will admit, I can see this working on some maps, but most, even if you, personally, would be willing to get off Vaga, most people won't be, because being able to shut you down requires getting to you, which requires them to sometimes, at least, deal with the other players. Some people would just fill a different role than the one they were doing, some would slog through failing to do much of anything.

I'm NOT saying the same things about lion, however. They are close combat, pure and simple.

Finally, I'm not trying to get anything about it changed. Just pointing out that, by many standards, Vaga is NOT balanced. In fact, as I'm trying to show, you are agreeing with something that shows exactly that. However, I'll make a comparison to Magic again. Tarmagoyf, is it balanced? Nope. Have WotC done anything about it? Nope. Just trying not to make the same mistake again.

[StarsMine]

You dont see people leaving vagalion, because they need to keep it or they dont know when they will get the chance to play it again. However shadow hunter gives a great balance. Lions dont dare jump into a ward, so when I see a lion around I find the nearest ward and run into it.

The only times when I see a vagabond or a lion get a positive K/D is when the other team does not attempt to counter.

No hacking is not balanced, it give an advantage that other players do not have, and adds a variable we dont consider in balancing other races.

[CYBER]

The only times when I see a vagabond or a lion get a positive K/D is when the other team does not attempt to counter.

THIS.
blackmage, read this since we both like walls of text -.- . (u know, this is actually a gd read ppl... if u wanna know some vaga tricks)

yesterday, i was being raped 1-7 right off the bat as vagalion because of the anti-races played by an enemy.
that enemy left, 4 more joined, and i went 60-10 on that same map, simply because they were too dumb to counter me...
the sad part is that, if they used their BRAIN, they'd have raped me. Vagas always have the tendency to teleport to "familiar" places and spots.

ex italy as T, a sample vaga movement would be to teleport to the corner between apparts and spawn, teleport to balcony, teleport to boxes above stairs leading to CT hall...
its a fucking process, a chain of teleport.
Reason why they do that? because they KNOW that this is the safest way not to get teleport damage...
just shoot at these spots, or be ready with wards... i cant tell u how many times i went there, raping ppl, until Wizard finally figured it out, and started teleporting there before me, with a lace... thats it. its game over for me... now i have to find ANOTHER way to counter him at that spot, picking us off 1 by 1, simply because i used to be the one covering it... Hence the cyclic imbalance

even when im not playing vagas, i fucking hunt the living fuck out of them just because i know the player tendencies where to go... oinly a couple people give me some hard time NOT BECAUSE OF THE RACE, but because THEY are gd players. THe imbalance comes from their skills, not the race...
u just need to stop jumping aroudn like a fish outside of water, and learn how to kill them...

vagas are more than balanced, heck whoever says they are the best race are idiots. easily countered, too many races against it, people see you as beacon for bullets, bcos of the xp...


I have a question:
Why do you think that vagas are NOT well played in scrims since they are soo fucking amazing?? hmmm?? i tell u from personal experience that in scrims, vagas SUCK. reason is that the teams are playing smart, strategically, together, with counters, precautions...
killing noobs in normal game is different than playing vaga against decent players in scrim...

i call a race imbalanced if a noob that used to be 0-70 kdr, hops on that race, and people try to take him down and fail... and he starts winning then... like a fucking 100% invis human with 100000 hp with built in lace and no teleport cooldown... see THATS wrongfully imbalanced (unfortunately there are wcs servers out there with such shit), but vaga isnt.

[Chikun]

The only part of that movie that applies to vagabond is the idea of trying to come up with theories to counters. Races with a passive lace play to their strengths by waiting around the corner of a long hallway vaga's teleport down to trap them. Shadow hunters or striders tend to lure vagas into tight areas so they can drop wards. While all of these strategies are sharp counters to a vagalion, they aren't to a vagabond for the simple reason that they can play to their strength by staying at range picking people off with the scout and still be as effective as people who get up close and play it like a vagalion or noscope with the scout. Practically every race in this server has some form of a sharp counter to it that can reduce the effectiveness of the other race by quite a bit. The only sharp counters to vagabond that I can think of are if the server is on cs_office or similar maps with limited open space and narrow hallways. Another example would be a terrorist on italy/militia that buys a lace and camps the round inside the house waiting for the vagabond to try to enter.

[CYBER]

The only sharp counters to vagabond that I can think of are if the server is on cs_office or similar maps with limited open space

...
smaller maps are better for vaga knifing... on office i usually get 20 more kills than any other map i play except dust 2... its all about knowing HOW to navigate through the halls, and not just teleport in the middle like an idiot.. zig zag left right and up down, until u;re near...
u can also snipe ppl from outside. so i dnt see ur point.

but u;re right about the other shit.
a long hallway is like the fucking holy grail for vagas to travel in. wait at the end of it, with a lace, and bam! u got urself a vaga stuck.
and for god's sakes ppl... if u dnt have wards or anything, keep ONE fucking grenade with u, and dont use it for anything, except if u got the vaga STUCK and he's ON UR RADAR, and u wanna try to pinpoint the height and exact position, so that u dnt get knifed randomly... u throw the nade where the radar shows... done.
i fucking love it when im stuck, and 5 random idiot enemies walk into me trying to find me and die...1 by 1... always fun

[Chikun]

...
smaller maps are better for vaga knifing... on office i usually get 20 more kills than any other map i play except dust 2... its all about knowing HOW to navigate through the halls, and not just teleport in the middle like an idiot.. zig zag left right and up down, until u;re near...
u can also snipe ppl from outside. so i dnt see ur point.

It's more difficult though because you only have a narrow passage to hit people (unless someone is just in the wide open like an idiot) and that just makes you play like you're fighting an awper on a 24/7 office server. In short, constantly peeking and prefiring.

Also, the majority of hallways are short enough where you can snap aim accurately with the exception of big snipe (cs_office).

There's a lot of places a T can camp with a lace and ruin a vaga every time. It's a little more difficult for a CT unless they get in fast enough.

Idk, I guess I'm trying to say that if someone playing as a vagabond is on their A game, you need to be on yours and only on certain races and I just don't think that's right. Races should have more of a rock-paper-scissors feel instead rock-paper-scissors-dynamite, where scissors has a small chance to cut the fuse before dynamite blows up your team.

[Masskid]

Vaga is not greatly imbalanced... Want to know one way to rape them?? Stay inside for one, use corners since the tele is useless for that make sure they don't have a straight teleport line to you, wards also help as does a lace. Die xonvert Imo is more imbalanced then Vaga. I've never seen a Vaga dominate the whole other team for nearly an entire map.

[Blackmage]

Bah, I'm having too much fun writing these... Which is why they just are getting longer and longer.

No hacking is not balanced, it give an advantage that other players do not have, and adds a variable we dont consider in balancing other races.

Rhetoric sir. Was using an extreme example to show having a counter =/= balanced so that no one would mistake that for serious. I see I failed :/

Also, allow me to reiterate: "I'm NOT saying the same things about lion, however. They are close combat, pure and simple." But as my anti_ward is just a H click away, I quite assuredly WOULD jump right in with you

The only times when I see a vagabond or a lion get a positive K/D is when the other team does not attempt to counter.

If that's the "only" time you people see it, you need to get on more. Positive kdr has less to do with people trying to counter it, and more to do with the players who only go one or two ways and are easily taken down, or the ones who don't know how to do their objective. Such as some admin last night complaining because Terrorists wouldn't stay and protect the Hostage house. Players like that are fish in a barrel, just looking to pad someone's (usually a speed race) KDR. Then there's the fact that in general, and more so on a WCS server, KDR is far from everything. There are many roles to fill, respawns pad both K and D. Being able to pick off the 9 players that have all been knocked down to 10 increases your Kills, while being the one that hits those 9 players doesn't. Support roles don't always lead to the glory of kills, and in certain cases can lead to the agony of death. I, for one, am more than willing to sacrifice myself to stop a defusal, using any means necessary.

Cyber: Guessing that it wasn't so much "if they used their BRAIN" as "if they were playing competitively and not just buying XP/dicking around". When you have players who don't care as much about playing the full game, you will be having unbalanced games. These are not the rounds to focus on. As you suggested, the Scrim is a MUCH better starting point. But the best point would be a 10v10 game where we had mostly good players on both teams. Those extra 4 players on each team, especially if a few of them are cannon fodder, make a HUGE difference.

Also, if you have only one path on any map, yes, you would be countered. Which is why it is so easy to counter some Vagas on many maps. But when you have a Vaga who comes from multiple directions and not just apartments hallway, a single person does NOT counter them. The tendency to only teleport to "familiar places" is not a problem the best Vagas have. Once they learn how far they can teleport down, how to teleport up, how to bounce jump, they can, and will, teleport anywhere. If they land on the same place on their paths (with a very few minor exceptions) it's more coincidence than an exploitable maneuver. Same with catching them on long hallways. If they continue rushing without support, yes, they're dead. However, I do concede that if a player who only does one thing leads more easily to cyclical imbalance. Having one player cover one alternative is not leading to balance.

Some other examples for T on Italy: Go down passage near wine cellar, from here, you can: stay and scout, go over bridge in a similar pattern to your way, go cover market. Another: Go to apartments hallway, stay and snipe. Another: Go down long hall, jump into market, go to CT's T-intersection, from there, harass spawning CTs, go into apartments and flank, flank those in market. Stay in the house and actually protect the objective.

On scrims: maybe because it's unbalanced and not broken? Also might be the smaller server size, people only wanting to play them in a limited amount of ways, people caring about KDR or a myriad of other possibilities, but I'm going with the foremost. I've never had time to participate, so was never really concerned with a game that plays differently than our server, or the mindset of those involved.

As for the best race? Nope. The most unbalanced using this videos guidelines? Probably. The most versatile? Yes. Not sure why you are confusing unbalanced for ANYTHING else.

I'll also say I've realized one thing it can't do. Heal. Forgot about that subclass of support.

i call a race imbalanced if a noob that used to be 0-70 kdr, hops on that race, and people try to take him down and fail... and he starts winning then... like a fucking 100% invis human with 100000 hp with built in lace and no teleport cooldown... see THATS wrongfully imbalanced (unfortunately there are wcs servers out there with such shit), but vaga isnt.

Actually, that'd be broken. If that's merely unbalanced... I don't think that would be a very interesting server.

The only part of that movie that applies to vagabond is the idea of trying to come up with theories to counters.

I'm seriously not sure if you're agreeing with me or them... As such, I'll assume the latter

And the part where a good chunk complain about it. Well, until they are browbeaten not to. And where he can do all 3 main FPS jobs, and most secondary ones. Heck, given the number of bullets expended at him, he's even one of the best tanks.

Also, when is it ever a good idea to be baited as any race? But that sounded more directed to Lion, which could be.

As for lace on Militia/Italy, after the first time, they can, and sometimes will just run through with the highest base speed of any race PLUS their scout, using their "more often than not a 1HKO" weapon. But this is really neither here nor there.

keep ONE fucking grenade with u, and dont use it for anything, except if u got the vaga STUCK and he's ON UR RADAR, and u wanna try to pinpoint the height and exact position, so that u dnt get knifed randomly... u throw the nade where the radar shows... done.

Also nice for stray birdys.

I've never seen a Vaga dominate the whole other team for nearly an entire map.

I've seen most races dominate 80%+ of the other team. Granted, Vaga is not the main one (I'm looking at you Molly).

Also, some of your strategy predicates the ability to do such. Some maps, Port, Desperados, various rats style maps, assault and MANY objectives, won't allow you to do such AND do your objective. Waiting for Vagas to get bored, as Cyber said, is beating the player, not the race.