Next time someone bitches about impalance

[HypeRNT]

I believe it's Wolf is the main one. There are a few. Cyber might have been another. If Spasm wasn't I'd be surprised. I can go positive with it. Problem is, if I wanted to play a defensive class, I'd play Human. Being a defensive class, most people won't play it, because most people on our server are heavy offensive, and we have a plethora of those, including other knife races. If they want to knife, there are around six gun races that can knife with the best, as well as the other knife races being offensive as well.

I don't pay attention to many players who play a variety of races, I just know people who are good at the game.

The crit is quite powerful. I'd prefer if it was x4 instead of only x3, but x3 one hits most races, even if they have periapt of health.

As for power, it is comparable to flame pred. Same speed, an alternate camouflage ability. His damage ability kills, Preds slows. Weapon Drop and Full invisibility both are special abilities. You just need to play the race correctly. Flame pred requires approaching them, Raps waits for the approach. Weakest depends on what you mean. Pano is similarly "weak". Shadow of the Void is a gimmick race. Warden is easily shut down. Low KDR and lack of play is due to people not wanting to play/learn it. It's actually been played almost 16 hours the past two days.

THE ULTIMATE IS NOT MEANT TO BE SPAMMED! YOU USE IT TO GET INTO POSITION WHEN NO ONE IS AROUND! As such, the fact that it is visible through walls is something that requires it to be played right, something we could use for another race *cough*. Another point: this can be used to bait.

As for "seeing us", you play between 8:00 and 22:00. I play between 23:00 and 4:00, with a few exceptions, and have very limited weekend play time. In fact, my 16 hours the past week beats your 12. Then, Stars plays 22:00-6:00. We just don't play at the same time. Brett and Chikun haven't played much in the past couple weeks, however. BTW: You Me Stars On the other hand, if you just don't remember playing with, you've just forgotten, I've played with you a number of times in the past.

Cyber playing rap? maybe while lvling it long ago, spasm playing rap? yeah right if rap isnt molecule or has the words vaga in it hes not on it. i dont think any1 here has said that the ult should be spammed, it just shouldn't be seen thru walls..... I sometimes feel like some of the people in here get offended if some1 disagrees or says something about the server, no matter how minor it is. The server is great, the races r awesome, no1 is debating that, what some people in here are saying myself included is that THIS particular race is pretty weak/unbalanced. You are comparing flame pred with rap? thats like comparing USA basketball team with Nigeria(record beating on those guys) rap has great speed which is awesome but what can i do with that speed? lets say by some miracle i stab a guy then what? the crit is so terrible that i have to hit a guy 2-5 times depending on health increases evasion and my crit proc going of. The ult itself is one of the worst things about it, id rather not have any invi then one that reveals me to other players thru walls before i can even see them....

I completely agree with starsmine, and i also think that if the knife proc was increased to lets say vagalion level, it would actually be a pretty nice race considering it would proc alot more often as well as would be more balanced because you would still have to play very smart with it, but it would actually payoff. At the end of the day, these are just simple suggestions that would help improve the race or if found not necessary just a nice thought to show that the players who play here actually care enough to post and therefor should be encouraged to do so without having the fear of being flammed.

[meatspin]

Before Diablo 3 got old, I used to play League of Legends when I got bored of this WCS server. Now, it is the other way around. These new races are retarded and make it almost pointless to play almost any older races once you have them at maximum level. It's getting to the point where I think every new race from now on will automatically have an ability that lets them fly if not be able to get to enemy spawn within the first 5 seconds of the round. This feature is non-existent in almost any RTS like Warcraft aside from Arbiter teleport in Starcraft. Please keep it simple and strategic.

[Blackmage]

Masskid: I group things into "offensive, defensive, support". Of the three, ambushing would be defensive, or support, but I'd go with defensive.

The stats dont lie here.

I have enough background in stats to know that you're right. I don't have enough to explain what it says though. Your statement about raps vs raps should have been a clue.

As for having no defensive skills, first, the ulti is. Second, the combinations of skills leads to it being a defensive class.

its dumb luck getting a kill with it, not skill.

So is Mr. "I have an awp". It's also strategy required. Back knives are what you're supposed to be trying for. I'm also pretty sure this race would be much better in a server without other 100% invis races.

Hyper... Do you actually play the server? I mean really? Spasm? He's mr. murder everyone as a Human. Also, believe it or not, when you're good at a race, but don't want to play a race, you don't play it. So, yes, you're probably right about Cyber. I fall into the same category.

As for your comparison of Raps vs Flame... And what does FP do? How often do they NOT have to stab the same enemy at least as often as Raps? Sure, they can weapon drop, this helps. They can burn, and this helps against knifers or vagas. The proc of raps kills people. The ultimate of Raps helps to lure or evade enemies. The ultimate of Flame helps if they've got an enemy without a necklace nearby, and have died. I will admit Flame has the upper hand in the health department.

BTW: a few comments. A: We have one more race to release before we worry about actual balance changes, or something close to that... Plans within plans and all that. B: These belong in a future balance thread, or even just in Raps thread, not in a derailed thread. C: Given how flawed your "logic" is, your opinions leave something to be desired. D: I flame you, because honestly, you're not a likeable person. You can't take a hint. You like to insult people. I assume you actually like the server and are trying to help it, but the people here, myself included, have rather large egos. Look through some of my posts. I will fight like you're fighting, for similarly unliked positions. I respect what you seem to be trying to do, I just don't respect your position.

"I sometimes feel like some of the people in here get offended if some1 disagrees or says something about the server, no matter how minor it is."

Usually, yes.

Kudos and welcome to Ibis,

~Blackmage

Meat: Heck, it's absent from most FPS game too. Which is why it's here. WCS is made to be different, and impressive. Flight and high speed are GREAT. As well, yes, a large number of our races are fast/mobile, and/or designed to stop fast/mobile races. That's correct too. If you can't find use for the first races, heck, even 3 of the 4 original races, you're doing strategy wrong The point is that you need to adapt. Pick the race for the situation, force the enemy to change. It's always great to force a spiderman to change off because they can't buy a lace AND a gun, and are shut down by athena or NE. Heck, human (race number 2, LOL) shuts down most speed races hardcore, and then some. Our server is all about the offensive. We don't go for subtlety often, and it shows in raps. Be quick or be dead.

[HypeRNT]

Masskid: I group things into "offensive, defensive, support". Of the three, ambushing would be defensive, or support, but I'd go with defensive.



I have enough background in stats to know that you're right. I don't have enough to explain what it says though. Your statement about raps vs raps should have been a clue.

As for having no defensive skills, first, the ulti is. Second, the combinations of skills leads to it being a defensive class.



So is Mr. "I have an awp". It's also strategy required. Back knives are what you're supposed to be trying for. I'm also pretty sure this race would be much better in a server without other 100% invis races.

Hyper... Do you actually play the server? I mean really? Spasm? He's mr. murder everyone as a Human. Also, believe it or not, when you're good at a race, but don't want to play a race, you don't play it. So, yes, you're probably right about Cyber. I fall into the same category.

As for your comparison of Raps vs Flame... And what does FP do? How often do they NOT have to stab the same enemy at least as often as Raps? Sure, they can weapon drop, this helps. They can burn, and this helps against knifers or vagas. The proc of raps kills people. The ultimate of Raps helps to lure or evade enemies. The ultimate of Flame helps if they've got an enemy without a necklace nearby, and have died. I will admit Flame has the upper hand in the health department.

BTW: a few comments. A: We have one more race to release before we worry about actual balance changes, or something close to that... Plans within plans and all that. B: These belong in a future balance thread, or even just in Raps thread, not in a derailed thread. C: Given how flawed your "logic" is, your opinions leave something to be desired. D: I flame you, because honestly, you're not a likeable person. You can't take a hint. You like to insult people. I assume you actually like the server and are trying to help it, but the people here, myself included, have rather large egos. Look through some of my posts. I will fight like you're fighting, for similarly unliked positions. I respect what you seem to be trying to do, I just don't respect your position.

"I sometimes feel like some of the people in here get offended if some1 disagrees or says something about the server, no matter how minor it is."

Usually, yes.

Kudos and welcome to Ibis,

~Blackmage

Edit: I'll get to meat when I get back.

First, that is your opinion it isn't *logic*, my logic isn't flawed its pretty freaking obvious to anyone who isn't on your nut sack. second that is the biggest joke of a post ever, you really think of comparing flame pred with rap as it even being close? You actually made me laugh out loud, flame pred not only procs often, has amazing invisibility, and an ult that drops people even if they fail to get the kill, this of course not counting setting people on fire=insta death or dropping their weapons=insta deadx2 or being able to have 190 hp. You also consider raps ult to be something thats great? or this so called defensive ability? Wut? HIS ULT SHOWS THRU WALLS, HE CANT MOVE its not like u walk past a freaking rap that went invis in front of your face. OBV if he goes invis at his freaking spwn at the start of the round he wont be seen, as would any other race invis or not.

Now as to your comments about me, you flame me because you feel it is your right to always correct people and give your opinion as its the law or something, which is wrong. I have not been to this PARTICULAR server for as long as you, yes no one is debating that, but i have my fair share of wcs experience from css or 1.6 aswell. Im not a likable person? says who? you and your *Home boys*? why the fuck would i give a shit on who likes me on a forum trololol, i have absolutely 0 problems in the server when im playing and have plenty of people on my friends list wcs admins included, so once again your OPINION is just YOUR OPINION and lets keep it at that.


And as to meatspins comment, i do understand were you are coming from. There is so much crazy flying crap now in the server that i feel like we need some crazy huge maps or play crazy indoors maps to prevent yourself from being owned spwn to spwn or having to defuse the bomb 5-10 seconds into the round(cable)(dolls)(dust)(DE_crackhouse) and other maps, i almost feel like some of the flying races shouldn't be able to plant the bomb just from the amount of distance they get to cover. But at the same time, it is a wcs server, custom races and older races pick your poison, some would say variety is good, but i guess it all depends on how much of it can you take.

[Erdenay]

have yet to see a rap being played well on any map by anyone. Have yet to see SOMEONE play rap, the race is underplayed and pretty useless period, anyone that would even argue this clearly doesn't play enough on the server or is thinking of a different race.

I have seen masskid going 18-2 day before yesterday. Granted it was in a stacked team against mostly noobs, but it still proves it can be played well. However, I can say that I have yet to see rapscalion do something like that against really good teams or stacked teams.

Stop using your ultimate at ground level, if you're going to tell me that the other team is going to advance down pathways at the start of a round looking at the sky trying to find you... I just don't know what to say.

There are only a few outcomes to this:
1.) You're repeating your tactic by going to the same spot (your fault)
2.) You're advancing too far and they saw your ultimate through a wall (your fault)

When you say you "normally camp the objective" that leads me to believe you chose option 1. A solution to this is to hide in the air on a path to the objective rather than at the objective and vary your travel distance each round. When you ambush someone, you do it before they get to their destination, not after.

Trust me, I do these things most of the time. The only thing that I'm sometimes guilty of would be #2, but even that is fairly rare. I never stay on the ground level when I don't have to, but since rap is easy to kill and really easy to counter, if they know the team has a raps, most of the time they will search for it due to easy and high xp (compared to other classes). I never, ever go to the same spot with raps if that's the same as I did last round - I sometimes stay within the rage ~ 50 - 100 feet, but same spot - that's just suicide.

I'm not saying this race can't be played well - I've had very good scores with it too (20-3 is one instance I remember), but that still does not prove it's not underpowered. In fact, I find myself normally doing better if I don't use the ultimate (or barely use it) as it normally gives better chances to do well.

rap isn't underpowered, however it is easily countered by skill, awareness, and anticipation. it takes a sharp mind and a good eye for hiding spots to be successful with it. you have to anticipate where the enemy's going to go, where they're going to look, how many there will be, and you need to be somewhere they won't look and that has an easily accessible exit route.

Exactly... And still with even these skills it's very difficult to do well against normal teams (I'm not talking about raping noobs).

Who r these *number of people* that you are speaking of? first of all, i havent seen u or half the peopel that posted in this thread playing in the server or even using the race, second, the race is way underpowered, it has a high level requirement for some odd reason, a crit blade that basically never crits, and an ult that reveals your position thru walls*lawl* now you can say as much as you want about how AWESOME this race is and how you just need to be "GOOD" and "SMART" to play it, but at the end of the day, the race is the weakest of the knife races, and the weakest race in the server period, and this is shown by peoples kdr and lack of playing time with it.

I believe it's Wolf is the main one. There are a few. Cyber might have been another. If Spasm wasn't I'd be surprised. I can go positive with it. Problem is, if I wanted to play a defensive class, I'd play Human. Being a defensive class, most people won't play it, because most people on our server are heavy offensive, and we have a plethora of those, including other knife races. If they want to knife, there are around six gun races that can knife with the best, as well as the other knife races being offensive as well.

I don't pay attention to many players who play a variety of races, I just know people who are good at the game.

The crit is quite powerful. I'd prefer if it was x4 instead of only x3, but x3 one hits most races, even if they have periapt of health.

As for power, it is comparable to flame pred. Same speed, an alternate camouflage ability. His damage ability kills, Preds slows. Weapon Drop and Full invisibility both are special abilities. You just need to play the race correctly. Flame pred requires approaching them, Raps waits for the approach. Weakest depends on what you mean. Pano is similarly "weak". Shadow of the Void is a gimmick race. Warden is easily shut down. Low KDR and lack of play is due to people not wanting to play/learn it. It's actually been played almost 16 hours the past two days.

THE ULTIMATE IS NOT MEANT TO BE SPAMMED! YOU USE IT TO GET INTO POSITION WHEN NO ONE IS AROUND! As such, the fact that it is visible through walls is something that requires it to be played right, something we could use for another race *cough*. Another point: this can be used to bait.

As for "seeing us", you play between 8:00 and 22:00. I play between 23:00 and 4:00, with a few exceptions, and have very limited weekend play time. In fact, my 16 hours the past week beats your 12. Then, Stars plays 22:00-6:00. We just don't play at the same time. Brett and Chikun haven't played much in the past couple weeks, however. BTW: You Me Stars On the other hand, if you just don't remember playing with, you've just forgotten, I've played with you a number of times in the past.

Well, I've not seen wolf actually own with that race... Or he was doing bad. Cyber? No. There have been only 2 people in the server that I've actually seen do really well in the server with this race - masskid and Brett. However, even then when they owned, they really didn't play against a really good opposition... When they did, they did not do that well... Have I seen them with positive kdr against decent opposition? Yes. Have I done it? Yes. Have few others done it? Yes. That's not the point though - the thing that I'm trying to point out that this race is just not as good as other races in the server. You can still do well with rapscalion - and some people do that, but for amount of levels it requires and for the skills it gives back compared to other races in wcs, it just doesn't stand on it's own.

Please understand me - I'm not actually saying that it's impossible to do well with this race: that would be nonsense. I am neither petitioning for a change as I know that will not happen. I do, however, try to point out that while Ibis wcs server is balanced fairly well, there are races which are underpowered or overpowered and just don't really add anything to the balance.

[CYBER]

I dont play rapscallion against a strong team unless both vagas are taken. The ONLY reason i dnt play that race often is not because it's underpowered, but because 90% of the time i play races i need to level, when i actually DO become maxxed, i try to get the vagas because im fucking good at it. i can play rap too, i can go decent kdr or go really bad, it depends on my days.

So dnt use the 'cyber doesnt play rapscallion' excuse, because i do, but only when i cant play vagas which are more suitable to my game style.

I play agressive, im not affraid to take 98 damage rushing close to someone if it guarantees me the kill. THIS is not suitable if i play rap which needs to be camped. If people dont play the race, any race, its not always because of the race itself. It also depends on players and their style.

I can see tom for example playing athena, BM, night elf, rAp etc because he doesnt play agressive. He plays smart and laid back, which is why he is almost always last to survive, whereas im 90% dead within the first 1.5 minutes, but i'd have taken down at least 3-4 enemies with me...

If you dont likethe race, dnt play it, rap is not the best race sure, i find it underpowered for MY gamestyle, but others might be better...

[Blackmage]

First, that is your opinion it isn't *logic*, my logic isn't flawed its pretty freaking obvious to anyone who isn't on your nut sack.

His is normal, mine in parentheses.

Have yet to see SOMEONE play rap, the race is underplayed(this part is fine) and pretty useless period,(this is fail in logic, to know it's useless, you'd have to have seen it at a decent amount)

anyone that would even argue this clearly doesn't play enough on the server or is thinking of a different race. (I'm sorry that 500+ hours list on Psychostats, 900+ listed on gametracker isn't enough. I am curious how your 400+ hours on either makes you qualified enough to comment, however. Though I do acknowledge that he, in a later post starts his "I've been on many servers" again)

the race is way underpowered, it has a high level requirement for some odd reason, a crit blade that basically never crits, and an ult that reveals your position thru walls(the only logic here is you're lazy, I can think of a number of reasons for all those, some of which I've mentioned before.)

the race is the weakest of the knife races, and the weakest race in the server period, and this is shown by peoples kdr and lack of playing time with it.(this shows that people don't play the race, not that it's weak.)

You are comparing flame pred with rap? thats like comparing USA basketball team with Nigeria(record beating on those guys) rap has great speed which is awesome but what can i do with that speed? lets say by some miracle i stab a guy then what? the crit is so terrible that i have to hit a guy 2-5 times depending on health increases evasion and my crit proc going of. The ult itself is one of the worst things about it, id rather not have any invi then one that reveals me to other players thru walls before i can even see them...(I gave you a response showing the issues in this one already. Denial is the first stage of something...)

Yes, perfect logic, I admi... Never mind, I'm not that stupid.

As you continued the FP vs Raps:

Flame pred has an ult that suffers from the EXACT SAME PROBLEMS RAPS DOES (lace kills it, only works when they are close) plus is necessitates dying, and can't be used for more than one thing. It has decent invis, as does Raps, just different. Both are easy for some people to see, hard for others. Setting people on fire = about nothing. If you die to it, grats. Weapon drop can FUBAR people who have auto-weapon switch on pickup, I admit. However, guess what? You still get shot or knifed by many enemies. Again, if this is auto death for you, L2P. This ability is also useless on other knife races, something that can't be said about raps. Raps ability doesn't proc as often, correct, but 1 hits most things(including a FP with health). 190vs150 is actually not as powerful as 100 vs 140. 140 is 3 right clicks, 100 is 2. 190 is 3 or 4, 150 is 3. All 4 are 1 back-knife. Against guns, the 40 extra HP is about 2 bullets, or less, and 150vs190 matters in few situations against gun races.

And you not knowing or caring about how to use the ultimate really isn't any of my concern anymore. It is useful, if you use it correctly.

I have not been to this PARTICULAR server for as long as you, yes no one is debating that, but i have my fair share of wcs experience from css or 1.6 aswell.

We've been over this before. To quote the same credentials as last time. "I've played a number of Warcraft servers, both 1.6 and Source." Yay?

Im not a likable person? says who?

You're snarky and rude, you can't take hints, you're arrogant. I could go look through more of your posts if you need more examples of things that are, in the real world, considered unlikable.

why the fuck would i give a shit on who likes me on a forum trololol, i have absolutely 0 problems in the server when im playing and have plenty of people on my friends list wcs admins included, so once again your OPINION is just YOUR OPINION and lets keep it at that.

I dunno, maybe because you actually wanted people to pretend to take you seriously? I was just letting you know that it isn't everyone who gets flamed, that you and your ilk are just special cases. I also argue with tons of people here, but have them on my friend's list. First off, this shows nothing other than they clicked a button. Second off, we don't discuss the same things here and there, mostly.

Erdenay:

FYI was going by this statement, not my actually knowledge of Cyber on Raps : This On Wolf, I'd just have to wait to see what he said. I've not personally seen Brett play it (well) that I know of, hence not adding him. But mostly, it's why I said "I don't pay attention to many players who play a variety of races, I just know people who are good at the game." I'll also mention, once more, that KDR means jack, and is by NO means a way to tell if a race or player is doing well. Also, amount of levels doesn't mean "better". It can mean a number of things, including "knows how the server works". It also has to do with when it was added. Zero might remember, some other people (Maynard) might know.

[Erdenay]

Flame pred has an ult that suffers from the EXACT SAME PROBLEMS RAPS DOES (lace kills it, only works when they are close) plus is necessitates dying, and can't be used for more than one thing. It has decent invis, as does Raps, just different. Both are easy for some people to see, hard for others. Setting people on fire = about nothing. If you die to it, grats. Weapon drop can FUBAR people who have auto-weapon switch on pickup, I admit. However, guess what? You still get shot or knifed by many enemies. Again, if this is auto death for you, L2P. This ability is also useless on other knife races, something that can't be said about raps. Raps ability doesn't proc as often, correct, but 1 hits most things(including a FP with health). 190vs150 is actually not as powerful as 100 vs 140. 140 is 3 right clicks, 100 is 2. 190 is 3 or 4, 150 is 3. All 4 are 1 back-knife. Against guns, the 40 extra HP is about 2 bullets, or less, and 150vs190 matters in few situations against gun races.

I do have to disagree with you a little bit here - flame pred's invisibity is the best in the server barring the completely invisible AND it can't be dispelled by flashlight. While I don't really agree with Hyper that it's useless, raps is definitely worse off than flame predator. Setting an enemy is actually an extremely useful skill - it slows down the enemy (which is the best part about) and it also somewhat kills the vision, so that you can jump high after that and go down and kill the victim. Dropping the gun is also a pretty useful skill, although not quite as good as flames. I do agree with you about the ulti somewhat - it's not really that good and I barely ever kill people with it.

Now, for raps - flickering shadows are nearly useless and while they do give an advantage, it's extremely minor. The crit barely ever works, so it's not that useful and the ultimate is... Eh at best. It does have a better levitation than flame pred, so that's a plus for raps. As far my comparison:

Raps crit < setting a person on fire
Flickering shadows < invisibility
raps levitation and speed > flame pred's levitation and speed (barely)
invisibility = nova (although I do like nova more as ulti for flame pred than invisibility for raps)

For me, flame pred definitely edges out rapscalion by quite a bit.

And you not knowing or caring about how to use the ultimate really isn't any of my concern anymore. It is useful, if you use it correctly.

It is somewhat useful, yes, but can you compare to most of other ultimates around?

FYI was going by this statement, not my actually knowledge of Cyber on Raps : This On Wolf, I'd just have to wait to see what he said. I've not personally seen Brett play it (well) that I know of, hence not adding him. But mostly, it's why I said "I don't pay attention to many players who play a variety of races, I just know people who are good at the game." I'll also mention, once more, that KDR means jack, and is by NO means a way to tell if a race or player is doing well. Also, amount of levels doesn't mean "better". It can mean a number of things, including "knows how the server works". It also has to do with when it was added. Zero might remember, some other people (Maynard) might know.

Fair enough about that.

As far as jack's KDR goes... I'm fairly certain you'll see it go up once more people will max it and whore it. Yes, kdr is not everything... But it definitely has some truth in it and raps is a fair example.

High amounts of level = a lot of xp = juicy target. Thus people tend to concentrate and look for you (I've seen it quite a bit), thus your life is even harder.

---------- Post added at 12:47 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:44 AM ----------

I can see tom for example playing athena, BM, night elf, rAp etc because he doesnt play agressive. He plays smart and laid back, which is why he is almost always last to survive, whereas im 90% dead within the first 1.5 minutes, but i'd have taken down at least 3-4 enemies with me...

If you dont likethe race, dnt play it, rap is not the best race sure, i find it underpowered for MY gamestyle, but others might be better...

Actually, really depends on a race I play - I play super aggressive with santa, molecule, spider, flame pred, normally jack too. If I'm playing a defencive/support class, then yes, I normally play very conservatively. And night elf? lol. Raps is better of being aggresive with health, cloak, lace then defencive, to be fair...

[Chikun]

lol went to check in on this thread and saw people posting manifestos...

ABANDON SHIP!

[brett friggin favre]

holy fucking shit, cyber's post was one of the shortest on this page! quick everyone, screenshot it before he edits war and peace into it!